Delta 8 what now?

Are you ready to embark on an exciting journey into the world of cannabis? Join Sean Kady and Guest Co-Host Tamara Lilien, as they share personal experiences of hunting for cannabis in pre-legalization Atlanta and California. From navigating unfamiliar terrain to discovering a great connection and receiving a free edible, we recount it all! We also explore how social media platforms have facilitated the connection of cannabis enthusiasts in new cities, creating a sense of community.

Have you ever wondered how factors like hormones, body mass, and food consumption impact the effects of edible dosing? We're here to demystify it all. We delve into the intricacies of finding the right dosage, the challenges posed by the limited variety of legal edibles, and we weigh in on the pros and cons of the solventless revolution. Buckle up as we delve into the potential impact of edibles on the future.

But we don't stop at the familiar! In our quest to understand the vast world of cannabinoids, we're diving into lesser-known compounds like Delta 8, CBN, and CBG. We unravel the complexities of the unregulated market, transparency issues, and the importance of providing accurate product information for informed decision-making. Join us as we share a hilarious anecdote about a letter we received about THCV and explore the potential benefits of minor cannabinoids. Plus, we'll give you the lowdown on some of the products from Lot 420. Let's embark on this journey of discovery, understanding, and laughter together!

Transcript

Sean Kady (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sean Kady.

Tamara Lilien (00:02):
And I'm Tamara Lilien.

Sean Kady (00:03):
And this is HigherOrbit.

(00:23):
Well, we're here back in the shop, 821 Queen Street West, back here with my good friend Tamara Lilien.

Tamara Lilien (00:31):
Hey.

Sean Kady (00:31):
Part two of our little segue, while Charlie's in Italia.

Tamara Lilien (00:37):
Hey, hey, hey.

Sean Kady (00:37):
Hey, hey, hey.

Tamara Lilien (00:38):
Buongiorno

Sean Kady (00:42):
Buongiorno. Welcome to the show today, it's Episode 10, and we're just going to chat about a bunch of different things. I think you were, weren't you recently in Atlanta?

Tamara Lilien (00:51):
I was.

Sean Kady (00:53):
Hotlanta?

Tamara Lilien (00:53):
Well, something like that.

Sean Kady (00:54):
How was that? I've never been there. It was always a place that I wanted to go, but what was it like? What was the scene like? Did you find weed?

Tamara Lilien (01:02):
So ATL is definitely an interesting scene. Couple of days in Atlanta, couple of days in Savannah which is a really historic and beautiful area of Savannah that is quite haunted by its history, and its past.

Sean Kady (01:18):
Racism and stuff, and slavery?

Tamara Lilien (01:19):
Oh, well. I mean, slavery, yes.

Sean Kady (01:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tamara Lilien (01:21):
Yes, absolutely. And we stayed in an Airbnb that was built in 1807.

Sean Kady (01:24):
Oh, shit.

Tamara Lilien (01:26):
So if you can imagine, I'm not sure we were staying there alone.

Sean Kady (01:31):
I understand.

Tamara Lilien (01:32):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (01:32):
If those walls could talk, right?

Tamara Lilien (01:33):
Oh, they arguably may have talked just a little bit, while we were there. Yeah. It was tough to find flower in ATL. I was smart, because I posted on my IG, asking everyone and anyone, "Yo, who has a connect in ATL?"

Sean Kady (01:52):
Pro tip.

Tamara Lilien (01:52):
"Because I'm not rolling through there for a week with no green."

Sean Kady (01:56):
Put out your feelers, right?

Tamara Lilien (01:57):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (01:57):
I think that that's a big important thing whenever you're travelling anywhere, as somebody who's a cannabis enthusiast. We take it for granted sometimes, we're in Canada. You forget that it's only been five years, but I remember not long ago, we had to look over our shoulders and worry about stinking.

Tamara Lilien (02:14):
Damn right.

Sean Kady (02:14):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (02:15):
Or just, we had to go to back alleys, and feel like we couldn't be in mainstream society because what we were doing was considered unacceptable. I'm curious, if you were going to go to the States, would you only go to states where cannabis is legal? Or would you just go wherever, and try to source it, like I did?

Sean Kady (02:37):
The last time I went to California, actually cannabis wasn't legal, and I did source it from a friend who used to live there. And I found some fucking fire in Oakland, it was awesome, walking into a house with some-

Tamara Lilien (02:46):
Oh, I believe that.

Sean Kady (02:46):
It was really funny because I remember when he sold it to me, and it was so stinky and he was like, "I haven't sold an ounce." He was like, "I guess you could give me 200 or something?" And I was like, "That seems like a really good price." Especially pre legalization in California. And it was unreal, and he was like, "I haven't sold an ounce in years." So I definitely found the plug. Shout out to Tara Chumplick, she gave me that connection. Hopefully, she doesn't mind me shouting her out. I doubt it, everything's good and kosher in California now.

(03:14):
What did you find? I don't remember the name of the strains, on that note. I can't remember. But what did you get when you were in Atlanta?

Tamara Lilien (03:20):
I have no idea what it was, but it was really potent and delicious.

Sean Kady (03:24):
I love it. Back to the days when you just didn't know.

Tamara Lilien (03:26):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (03:26):
It was just like, "Ooh, it smells great. I have no idea what it is."

Tamara Lilien (03:30):
It had some nice purples in it.

Sean Kady (03:31):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (03:32):
And the scent profile was reminiscent of something in the Ice Cream Cake family.

Sean Kady (03:38):
Oh.

Tamara Lilien (03:38):
So it had some nice baked good tones. There was definitely some gas, maybe there was a little GSC in there, Girl Scout Cookies. But it was really potent and sticky. And the person who hooked me up warned me, "The States is a bit mm, about whether you're going to get some actual quality, you might have to smoke three joints to feel anything." But I got damn lucky. I picked up a half zip. It cost me like 150 bucks, a lot, in US dollars, but hey.

Sean Kady (04:09):
11 bucks a gram, or so. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Tamara Lilien (04:11):
Totally worth it, to be able to blaze comfortably on vacation. All my girlfriends are getting shit-faced drunk, and I could still enjoy myself.

Sean Kady (04:20):
And it sounds like it was of a more top shelf. It's not like you were smoking mids.

Tamara Lilien (04:23):
No.

Sean Kady (04:24):
It sounds like a pretty tasty experience.

Tamara Lilien (04:26):
You know I'm not a mids girl. I like my exotic quads.

Sean Kady (04:29):
Did this go down in a car? Did you meet in the back alley, or let us know, what's the story? How did you find this person?

Tamara Lilien (04:35):
It was remarkably easy. The friend who hooked me up sent me a guy's phone number. Said, "Text this guy." I texted him the second I got off the aeroplane. Being like, "Yo man, where can we make meet up?"

Sean Kady (04:48):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (04:48):
We happened to be staying in a pretty central area in midtown Atlanta, at a hotel. And he fully just rolled up right into the hotel parking lot, we did our little exchange.

Sean Kady (05:00):
Back of the car.

Tamara Lilien (05:01):
Oh, best part. He said, "Oh, since you're grabbing a half zip, I'm going to give you a free edible."

Sean Kady (05:06):
Ooh.

Tamara Lilien (05:06):
So he gives me a lollipop in an unmarked bag. I'm like, "Okay. Not sketchy, at all."

Sean Kady (05:12):
No, no, totally not.

Tamara Lilien (05:13):
So I text him being like, "Hey man, what's the dose on this lollipop?" And then he just answers with a question mark. I'm like, "Okay, cool. I'm probably not going to consume this.

Sean Kady (05:23):
Not going to eat this lollipop.

Tamara Lilien (05:23):
So then, I get home from Atlanta a couple of days later. I get a phone call from a random number. I'm like, "Who the fuck is calling me right now?" It's this dude in Atlanta saying, "Hey man, I gave the lollipop to someone else and they were high for three days. So I'm just wondering, did you consume it?" I said, "No, man, I didn't consume it. I don't consume unmarked product. I make informed, thoughtful decisions."

Sean Kady (05:50):
I think that's fair. Even when it comes to cannabis, it was nice when at least you would have the ingredients on it. Even just a little label that's like sugar, water colouring, whatever, cannabis CO2 extract, or whatever it might be.

Tamara Lilien (06:02):
Just a bit.

Sean Kady (06:02):
A little bit of info would be good.

Tamara Lilien (06:04):
Exactly. So he said, "I just wanted to check in. Did you consume it?" I said, "No." And I said, "Man, I'm just curious. How much cannabis did you put into your batch of lollipops?" He said, "I put in an ounce, and I made 30 lollipops." And I proceeded to inform him about how one gram is a thousand milligrams, and a thousand milligrams at 28% is 280 milligrams of THC. Even if you figure a loss of 50% from decarboxylation, you're still looking at 140 milligrams of THC per gram.

Sean Kady (06:39):
Wow.

Tamara Lilien (06:39):
So multiplied by 28, he was seriously overdosing his clients.

Sean Kady (06:46):
These poor people, man.

Tamara Lilien (06:47):
And I told him, "You can get way more for less. Use two grams, you can make the same batch, everyone will be happy." So we still are seeing, whether you're in a legal area or not, people just don't have a good kind of understanding of mechanism of action, of inhalation versus edibles.

Sean Kady (07:05):
Interesting.

Tamara Lilien (07:06):
Long way to go.

Sean Kady (07:06):
Look at you. You're never taking time off. I mean, educating while you're down South.

Tamara Lilien (07:10):
Do it in my sleep, man.

Sean Kady (07:11):
I guess there was something I did want to touch, in your opinion, that kind of brings me to edibles. And kind of like, I'm not one, I don't really consume any edibles. Do you consume a lot of edibles?

Tamara Lilien (07:22):
So I actually-

Sean Kady (07:23):
I like smaller doses, sorry, just to touch on that-

Tamara Lilien (07:24):
Yeah. No, no. Please.

Sean Kady (07:25):
... but I probably never really go above 50. I find anywhere between 10 and 50 is nice, like I'm having a good time.

Tamara Lilien (07:31):
50 is a pretty solid dose. Do you have, what's your edible of choice?

Sean Kady (07:36):
Edible of choice would probably be a rosin head, like a OG legacy.

Tamara Lilien (07:39):
Nice.

Sean Kady (07:39):
I'm going to shout out, obviously he's a good friend of mine.

Tamara Lilien (07:41):
Shout out Todd.

Sean Kady (07:41):
To Todd, yeah, he was on the show.

Tamara Lilien (07:43):
For sure.

Sean Kady (07:43):
But he used to do these ones that were 50, and it was hash rosin, and for me that was perfect. Even half of that, honestly, 25, maybe 50 if I'm at home, and I'm watching a movie and I'm not talking to people. But I really find that when I get over 25, I get a lot of speech slurring. I get a lot of... I lose confidence. I don't know. You know, feel, "Uh, uh," you kind of trail off and mumble. And you're like, "Uh, I'm stoned," or whatever. It just becomes a less enjoyable experience for me, personally.

Tamara Lilien (08:10):
Interesting. And do you find that there are particular scenarios where you actually do want to be kind of slurry, Sean, we'll say?

Sean Kady (08:18):
Yeah. Well, if I'm alone and I'm watching a movie, or I don't need to worry about... If my son's already asleep, and I don't need to worry about being a dad, for that. And for the most part, if he's not waking up with a cold like he was last night.

Tamara Lilien (08:31):
Aw.

Sean Kady (08:31):
Yeah, I guess I don't, not necessarily slurry. But when you get to a point where I can really enjoy a movie or unwind, and get a full euphoria body relaxation. And I always find that I get just a phenomenal sleep after. And for me, I think that sleep, I mean, when you talk about edibles and sleep. Anybody who's on a sleeping aid, I usually try and remind them that cannabinoids can really help them, because I think that it's just so much easier on your body. And some claim then that you're a little bit groggy. But I think if you find just the right dose, you know what I mean? That right little mix of CBD, THC, kind of can really get you that sleep that everybody's looking for allows you to kind of-

Tamara Lilien (09:13):
Maybe even some CBN.

Sean Kady (09:13):
Right? Yeah. It allows you to unlock your next day, and your full potential, I think.

Tamara Lilien (09:17):
And I think what you're speaking to is the whole idea of finding the sweet spot for yourself.

Sean Kady (09:23):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (09:23):
So for you, you know 25 milligrammes is going to have X, Y, Z kind of outcome, and 50 milligrammes is going to do this. And if you want to sleep, or if you're having trouble sleeping, you're going to kind of adjust your dose accordingly. And I think that's something that a lot of people are still kind of landing on, for themself. "What is my edible dose, and how many edibles or how many milligrams do I need to feel functional?" Or, "How many milligrams do I need to be knocked on my ass?" And there's a lot of factors at play, it's not just, "Oh, my experience," or, "This is what I had before." So for women, your hormones, where you are in your cycle plays a huge role-

Sean Kady (10:04):
Oh, really?

Tamara Lilien (10:04):
... in how edibles are going to affect you. There's things like your body mass, or how much food you have in your stomach. So if you eat edibles on an empty stomach, you're going to have a totally different experience than if you eat them after having a really high saturated fat meal, like burger and fries or something.

Sean Kady (10:21):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (10:22):
Or avocado toast, or something like that.

Sean Kady (10:24):
What's the sweet spot for you, personally?

Tamara Lilien (10:26):
That is a good one. I have waffled over the years. I used to co-own and be the head of education at the Cannabis Cooking Company. So when I did that, I ate a lot of edibles. I could polish off 250 milligrams like it was no big thing. That was a long time ago. I'm probably around the same area as you, like 25, 50 milligrams. And so that presents a pretty substantial challenge. Am I going to go to a store and buy five packs of edibles?

Sean Kady (11:01):
Probably not.

Tamara Lilien (11:02):
And then eat 50 gummies? I'm going to have diabetes before I get high. Right?

Sean Kady (11:07):
Yeah. No disrespect to all those fighting diabetes, but a hundred percent. It's just like, the sugar content's-

Tamara Lilien (11:11):
Oh, no, no. Sorry.

Sean Kady (11:11):
... crazy.

Tamara Lilien (11:12):
No disrespect at all.

Sean Kady (11:14):
Definitely. No, no, no.

Tamara Lilien (11:14):
Definitely not.

Sean Kady (11:15):
Definitely not. No, it was a funny joke. I thought I was hilarious.

Tamara Lilien (11:17):
Yes, and apologies to anyone who struggles with diabetes, by any means.

Sean Kady (11:20):
No.

Tamara Lilien (11:21):
I just was commenting on the volume of sugar-

Sean Kady (11:23):
They're all sugar bombs.

Tamara Lilien (11:23):
... that I would have to consume.

Sean Kady (11:24):
It's all candy, it's all chocolate.

Tamara Lilien (11:26):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (11:26):
It's all soda, beyond some of the seltzers. And I guess that you need that sugar, you need spice, or some sort of something to cover up what they're using to put in there. I think there should be more companies finding ways to compliment the flavour instead of covering it up, and I guess the solvent-less revolution's kind of pushing that to the foreground?

Tamara Lilien (11:45):
I mean, I think so, I think we're starting to see more edibles that are made using extracts, which I think is a positive. And more than anything, we're working in a system that is not designed for success because we know that the 10 milligram limit is just not meeting the needs of the vast majority of edible users. So until the legal market catches up with the needs and demands of the average consumer, I mean go legacy market, go. Continue to produce all these wonderful edibles that most people are going to buy, because it's just easier to buy a product and eat one single gummy that's 25 or 50 milligrams, than have to eat multiple packs.

Sean Kady (12:26):
Yeah, I-

Tamara Lilien (12:27):
And it's no disrespect, of course, to any of our edible-

Sean Kady (12:30):
None at all.

Tamara Lilien (12:33):
... colleagues out there. There's tonnes of delicious edibles out there, but they just aren't getting me high.

Sean Kady (12:39):
Yeah, I think that maybe that would be a cannabis 3.0. I think that that would be a revolutionary kind of step forward for the legal Canadian market, if we could unlock that edible limit. Because I just think it would really open a wave, and a number of possibilities, and a number of amazing new products that could come to market. And I don't think that, like with the packaging that's in place, and those things are so hard to get open. Majority, and I could fact check myself on this, but I know that most of the kids that end up in the hospital with a hyperemesis situation are like... Cannabis hyperemesis, we'll touch on that soon. People who don't know what it is, we're going to explain shortly. It's usually black market edibles. And because they're not tested, you don't know how much is in there, or if they're being contaminated by something else that's just going to make them sick, otherwise.

Tamara Lilien (13:30):
So I'm going to push back a little bit on that.

Sean Kady (13:33):
No, please do. Do.

Tamara Lilien (13:33):
And I'm going to say that I think children who access, or who accidentally, or come upon their parents' edibles, that is the product of an irresponsible parent. It has nothing to do with whether the parents sourced it from legal or legacy market, because realistically-

Sean Kady (13:53):
But packaging is different, on that note-

Tamara Lilien (13:55):
Yes. Yes.

Sean Kady (13:55):
... I do think like the Stoner Patch Kids-

Tamara Lilien (13:56):
The packaging is different, but-

Sean Kady (13:58):
... to the ones that actually have a big THC logo. At least the kids know that... You don't think it matters?

Tamara Lilien (14:02):
No. It definitely doesn't matter. I mean, if it mattered, then every child would be an alcoholic because of the way that alcohol is presented. "Oh, you can have the most fun day of your life if you have this girl's trip," I don't know, "seltzer," or some shit, I don't drink. But you know what I mean.

Sean Kady (14:22):
I know what you're saying.

Tamara Lilien (14:22):
All the alcohol ads are very much geared towards very, very young audiences. So it's hypocrisy, right?

Sean Kady (14:32):
Oh, that's a good point. That is a really good point, actually.

Tamara Lilien (14:34):
And since we're on the topic of removing the 10 milligram limit, definitely. We've got to see the removal of childproof packaging. It's crazy. We've got to see the excise stamp, changes to the excise stamp.

Sean Kady (14:49):
I don't know if you'd heard this, but I heard that they wanted to make it photos, instead of just the yellow label, you know how the cigarettes have the photos of them. What are they going to show? A dude passed out on a couch with a bunch of empty Cheeto bags?

Tamara Lilien (15:03):
Maybe they'll show that.

Sean Kady (15:03):
I don't know.

Tamara Lilien (15:04):
You know that girl, from the commercial, where she's deflated on the road?

Sean Kady (15:08):
Yeah, I just think that the images to my head just made me laugh, and I just think it's so ridiculous.

Tamara Lilien (15:14):
I mean, ultimately, smoking cigarettes causes a number of health problems, lung cancer, emphysema, all kinds of stuff. The jury is still out on cannabis use, largely.

Sean Kady (15:32):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (15:32):
So yes, we know that there are some risks, but there's also an enormous amount of reward and return, and therapeutic and medical benefits. So I don't put them in the same category at all, and when we see things like legislators saying, "Oh, well what we did with tobacco, we'll just extrapolate that onto cannabis." I'm like, "You guys don't have the right experts at the table to be making these decisions."

Sean Kady (15:57):
I agree. I completely agree with you. I guess moving, I did want to talk about hyperemesis.

Tamara Lilien (16:03):
Sure, sure.

Sean Kady (16:04):
That was something we talked about.

Tamara Lilien (16:05):
Yeah, let's do it.

Sean Kady (16:05):
So for people who don't know what cannabis hyperemesis, is it's when your cannabinoid system's overloaded with different cannabinoids, and you basically react in vomiting, it could be called greening out. But from my understanding, it's from prolonged use, and your cannabinoids system being stressed out. Is that right, Tamara? Kind of?

Tamara Lilien (16:23):
So yeah, I mean-

Sean Kady (16:24):
I know that this is all kind of up for debate, just so everybody knows.

Tamara Lilien (16:26):
Yeah, yeah.

Sean Kady (16:26):
We're not claiming to be experts at all. It's just-

Tamara Lilien (16:28):
No.

Sean Kady (16:29):
... we're just having a conversation about it.

Tamara Lilien (16:30):
So just to take a step back, we're talking about this endocannabinoid system, which is a system in our body that promotes-

Sean Kady (16:37):
Thank you.

Tamara Lilien (16:37):
... or it's a regulatory system that promotes balance, or homeostasis, equilibrium in our body. So it exists through our reproductive, our immune functions, hunger and satiety. All different functions, our central and our peripheral nervous system. So it's at play through a lot of these kind of primary functions in our body. And the question is, if we overwhelm our endocannabinoid system with more cannabinoids than it wants, or can tolerate, are we at risk of producing this disorder, or this syndrome? And I think it really depends who you talk to. What do you think? Do you think this is legit? Or do you think it's just kind of a myth, or hogwash?

Sean Kady (17:24):
I've heard a few different theories. I mean, the thing that I guess has been coming to light is there's a lot more cases of it. I mean, to the point you said you think there's a lot of doctors maybe falsely, what was I going to say? Diagnosing-

Tamara Lilien (17:39):
Diagnosing it, yeah.

Sean Kady (17:41):
... as hyperemesis? But I do think that weed is getting crazy strong, it's definitely stronger than it used to be.

Tamara Lilien (17:47):
For sure.

Sean Kady (17:47):
And it continues to get stronger and stronger. I think that the timeline of the dab-ables, I wonder if dab-ables has something to do with it. I think when you're growing up, I didn't try dabs until later on in my experience-

Tamara Lilien (17:59):
Common.

Sean Kady (17:59):
... many years of consuming flower, right?

Tamara Lilien (18:00):
Sure.

Sean Kady (18:01):
I had already, and smoking other kinds of hash, so I think that maybe kids trying it from a younger age when their brain isn't fully developed, is part of it. I have heard a theory that it's part of the chemicals that are being used in the growing of it, because those nutrients and things change over time, as everybody tries to figure out what the best thing is to get the best results.

Tamara Lilien (18:21):
I mean, so we put tonnes of chemicals in our fertilizers when we're growing anything, so how could we say it's from your fertilizer that was used to grow your cannabis versus to grow your carrots?

Sean Kady (18:35):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (18:35):
So what I find is that when these types of diagnoses are provided, I'm not necessarily confident that there's been a full workup, so that there's not some sort of consideration or curiosity that maybe there's something else at play. And that cannabis is actually just exacerbating, it's like worsening some other condition. And it's possible that cannabis isn't right for every person and everybody.

Sean Kady (19:03):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (19:04):
I would personally argue that-

Sean Kady (19:06):
Is this like a sign from your body saying, "Take a T break, maybe, tomorrow?" That's what I'm saying, that these people-

Tamara Lilien (19:11):
I mean, it definitely could be, or maybe it's THC isn't right for you, but you should consider some other cannabinoids. Maybe inhalation isn't right for you, and you should consider topicals.

Sean Kady (19:19):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (19:20):
So because cannabis is so broad and the way that you can benefit is so diverse, that if you are finding that cannabis is making you vomit, and my research has shown that there's actually a product that growers used to use called neem oil, and neem helps with pest control.

Sean Kady (19:40):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (19:41):
And hyperemesis could be linked to neem poisoning.

Sean Kady (19:45):
Whoa. Okay, I didn't know that.

Tamara Lilien (19:46):
So there's all these theories out there, and I think largely the jury's still out. The medical community doesn't necessarily know enough, and we don't necessarily know enough about our bodies, so we're making conclusions that are mm.

Sean Kady (20:00):
Yeah, I think the last thing I want to touch on that before we wrap it up is-

Tamara Lilien (20:03):
Sure.

Sean Kady (20:04):
... it seems like edibles, and the higher doses of edibles, are causing more of these kinds of reactions. I do think personally when I take, that's the only time I've ever felt like, "Okay, this is too much weed for me."

Tamara Lilien (20:15):
Sure.

Sean Kady (20:16):
You know what I mean? When you can really have those psychedelic experiences, I think.

Tamara Lilien (20:20):
Totally.

Sean Kady (20:20):
When you consume massive high milligramage. Do you agree with that?

Tamara Lilien (20:24):
I mean, when you consume edibles, the mechanism of action is so different, because we know that we're metabolising the cannabis, and then it's producing an effect that's three to four times more potent.

Sean Kady (20:34):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (20:34):
And it lasts longer, so if there are people making 30 lollipops with 28 grams.

Sean Kady (20:41):
That dealer in Atlanta.

Tamara Lilien (20:42):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (20:42):
Fucking dosing people with a thousand fucking milligrams.

Tamara Lilien (20:44):
That's right. Like, if you're getting people high for three days, yeah. They might not be super inclined to repeat that experience. And it seems like your body's probably pretty overwhelmed with THC if you're high for that long. So I think there's work to be done-

Sean Kady (20:59):
Agreed.

Tamara Lilien (21:00):
... on learning what works for you. But hey, if cannabis makes you vomit, explore your options.

Sean Kady (21:06):
Explore your options. Take a T break.

Tamara Lilien (21:08):
Take a T break.

Sean Kady (21:09):
We'll be right back with HigherOrbit with Tamara Lilien. Follow us on YouTube, or subscribe to the YouTube channel. Follow Tamara @cannalily.consulting.

Tamara Lilien (21:16):
Dot consulting.

Sean Kady (21:18):
Dot consulting.

Tamara Lilien (21:20):
Cheers.

Sean Kady (21:27):
Welcome back with Tamara Lilien, Canna Lily Consulting. She is our cannabis expert while Charles is in Italia.

Tamara Lilien (21:36):
Happy to be co-hosting with you today, Sean.

Sean Kady (21:39):
Yeah, so much fun, this is the anchor part of our two episode series, educational series? I guess, I was thinking on the break, we were talking about just our industry and this lack of transparency that seems to be kind of prevalent. Would you kind of agree, as somebody... I wonder if it's just the Canadian market, or if it's a broader market? But I think it is a broader market where just, I don't know, companies are happy to kind of fraud it up, is all I'm saying.

Tamara Lilien (22:09):
You know, I think there is a big opportunity for improvement-

Sean Kady (22:13):
Right?

Tamara Lilien (22:13):
... in the category of transparency, but we're starting to see some improvements, right? We're starting to see some companies being more overt with information that we want to know about their products.

Sean Kady (22:29):
There are, yeah. And I would say that we're starting, for example, I guess we have a couple of examples, a few different companies. We're not going to go too into detail with what the products are, but just kind of like to state what kind of information they're giving you, and if it's valuable, and do we think it's valuable? Do you think it's valuable?

Tamara Lilien (22:45):
I mean, I think knowledge is power. More information is always better than less.

Sean Kady (22:51):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (22:51):
And the people who want the information will gobble it up, and the people who don't will ignore it. But if we don't put the information at all, it gives the impression that we have something to hide.

Sean Kady (23:05):
Right. I do agree with that. I think that secrets are bad in any industry and with cannabis, especially if it's something you're consuming, I feel like, "What are you hiding?" Especially if it's a consumable, say if you're in the food industry, and it's like-

Tamara Lilien (23:18):
Sure.

Sean Kady (23:18):
... "What's in there?" "It's a secret recipe. I can't tell you what's in there." It's kind of weird, right?

Tamara Lilien (23:22):
Right. And you're like, "Uh..." And even with fast food, or in restaurants, a lot of the time now you see the calorie and the fat and the sugar content, all listed out in front of you. They're like, "Look, we want to be transparent with our menu items so you know exactly what you're putting in your body." We're putting cannabis products in our body.

Sean Kady (23:38):
We are.

Tamara Lilien (23:39):
We should ask for and expect, if not demand, the same level of transparency.

Sean Kady (23:44):
Yeah, and I think even some companies have taken steps back. I don't know, I've noticed some of them are cheaping out, because everyone's trying to cut corners. And I think it's like, "Oh, I don't have to put on that terp sticker anymore. And it's like, "Oh my God." The step backward is brutal, I know everyone's trying to make money here, it's tough. But some of the information on this one, like I have, "Other minor cannabinoids in this extract," on here. I have the type, who extracted it.

Tamara Lilien (24:06):
Okay, I like that.

Sean Kady (24:07):
Which is kind of cool. I was like, "Okay, so who actually did the work." The method in which, the hydrocarbon BHO.

Tamara Lilien (24:11):
Okay.

Sean Kady (24:12):
Good old hydrocarbon BHO shatter.

Tamara Lilien (24:17):
No comment on that.

Sean Kady (24:17):
Yeah, no judgement , either. "Appearance: brittle, fragile." That's cool. So they kind of give you a description of what it looks like.

Tamara Lilien (24:21):
What to expect, that's good.

Sean Kady (24:22):
Some flavour, they say there's some sweet grape, and some tropical flavours.

Tamara Lilien (24:29):
Okay. Curious to know if that's legit.

Sean Kady (24:29):
And then they do have a suggested temperature to inhalate, between 545 and 565. And then a consumption message, they're obviously saying, "Do not eat this, vaporise please," kind of thing. And a package date, so a lot.

Tamara Lilien (24:44):
That's pretty decent.

Sean Kady (24:46):
Right?

Tamara Lilien (24:46):
I like to see that.

Sean Kady (24:47):
CBGs, CBDVs, CBDA.

Tamara Lilien (24:47):
Okay.

Sean Kady (24:54):
CBG, CBGA, and CBN. And then at Delta-8, Delta-9, THCA. That's a lot of cannabinoids listed, isn't it?

Tamara Lilien (24:59):
That is a lot of cannabinoids.

Sean Kady (25:00):
What do you have on yours?

Tamara Lilien (25:01):
So I've got some master grower info, grow location. Info about how it was dried and how long it was dried, packaged on, intended use, how to store it. No expiry date has been determined. Now that one, highly debatable.

Sean Kady (25:18):
Highly debatable. I heard that, actually on that note, that is a funny one. That that's part of the recommendations for the changes to the Cannabis Act.

Tamara Lilien (25:26):
Great.

Sean Kady (25:26):
So they're not going to be able to use that phrase anymore, which I welcome, definitely. We all know that simply isn't true. You could still safely consume it, but it's safe to say that it's not going to be what it once was.

Tamara Lilien (25:39):
Cannabis is alive. It's a living, breathing thing. And when it's removed from the plant, it doesn't just exist in a fixed state. It's interacting with the environment that it's in. So I mean, it's essentially comparable to produce. Imagine if you couldn't see-

Sean Kady (26:01):
Produce is a good one.

Tamara Lilien (26:01):
... an apple, before you bought it. Or you couldn't squeeze, what do you squeeze?

Sean Kady (26:07):
No joke, we used to call, I used to call it produce. That was funny. I don't know. We used to say we were in the produce business, like legacy days. We'd literally-

Tamara Lilien (26:13):
For real.

Sean Kady (26:13):
... "Is the produce fresh, man?" And you'd have to move it, because literally, you won't get... Even in those days, I had to sell it for less. I knew as soon as it-

Tamara Lilien (26:21):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (26:21):
... there was something that had changed. Terpenes especially I think do ferment, or they do something where they change, the effects even change. And if you're not storing it properly? Massive thing. I know a lot of people that didn't, and I used to take that very seriously.

Tamara Lilien (26:34):
Totally.

Sean Kady (26:35):
Cool, dark place. Super important. Right?

Tamara Lilien (26:37):
Yeah. And also, removing it from its original packaging and putting it in a glass airtight container-

Sean Kady (26:42):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (26:42):
... also definitely helps, in terms of shelf stability. The example I always give is, cut an apple and leave it open on the counter, and see what happens. Does the apple stay the same?

Sean Kady (26:53):
No.

Tamara Lilien (26:54):
No, it gets brown.

Sean Kady (26:55):
Brown.

Tamara Lilien (26:56):
And browner, and mushier, because it's being exposed to oxygen and it's oxidising. And it's the same shit with cannabis.

Sean Kady (27:05):
I couldn't agree more, Tamara. I think that on this note of packaging and transparency and stuff like that, I wanted to segue and get your kind of thoughts on synthetic cannabinoids. It's definitely been like a... I know that Delta-8 was legal in Canada, and we did have some products, mainly some beverages and edibles that had Delta-8 in it.

Tamara Lilien (27:27):
And were you selling those at Cosmic Charlies?

Sean Kady (27:29):
We chose to not sell them. We did not sell any Delta-8 here. I have never tried Delta-8. I have you tried Delta-8?

Tamara Lilien (27:37):
I have tried it once, but it was quite-

Sean Kady (27:39):
Can we tell people what Delta-8 is? I guess for people who don't know, quickly?

Tamara Lilien (27:42):
Yeah. Oh, of course. So Delta-8 is essentially a synthetic cannabinoid that is made in a lab. So most frequently what's happened is it is chemically manipulated from-

Sean Kady (27:56):
CBD isolate, right? I think, in there?

Tamara Lilien (27:59):
Yes, from CBD, which is often hemp. So it's harvested hemp. Then we extract the CBD, then the CBD is chemically manipulated into Delta-8. And that's part of the reason why we're seeing it everywhere in the States, at every gas station, they're giving it away for free at the airport. It's everywhere.

Sean Kady (28:19):
They were giving it away for free at the airport?

Tamara Lilien (28:22):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (28:22):
You had that experience? Crazy.

Tamara Lilien (28:23):
Oh, yeah. Or CBD, Delta-8. It's everywhere, because it's unregulated in the States.

Sean Kady (28:27):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (28:28):
So it exists in this weird grey area. And I think it's the same in Canada, isn't that right?

Sean Kady (28:33):
I think so. I don't see it as much anymore, but Spice and K9 and all that stuff. So that's like weird hemp plant matter, I guess, that's sprayed with this synthetic chemical. But it can kind of cause adverse reactions, I've heard, especially when taken in higher doses.

Tamara Lilien (28:49):
Oh, yeah. Big time.

Sean Kady (28:51):
And I guess the reason it's so popular is, let's be honest, because it's cheap. So you can buy cheaper hemp from, not Canadian hemp, not that there's anything wrong. But you don't know what they're using, and chemicals kind of things. How are they growing that hemp? What standards are they growing it in, say a China or an India? Again, nothing wrong with that, but we just don't know. So it's super cheap. It seems weird that you would be consuming something, and especially because it's such a new thing and we don't really know the long-term effects, do we?

Tamara Lilien (29:19):
And in terms of transparency, we're checking off zero boxes right now.

Sean Kady (29:24):
Yes. Absolutely none, I totally agree. I do know that there are some products that we carry that have synthetic cannabinoids. And I don't want to throw, particularly, anybody under the bus. When I asked one producer about it, I got, "Well, it's like kombucha." And I was like, "What?" And I was like, "I don't know if that's appropriate." And when I talk about, I think it's more minor cannabinoids. So beyond Delta-8, a lot more popularity we've noticed in CBN, CBC and CBG.

Tamara Lilien (29:53):
Interesting.

Sean Kady (29:54):
Especially in more novice consumers are asking us a lot more, CBN usually. The, "Oh, my friend told me CBN can help sleep." And with CBG, normally, it kind of amplifies sativa experiences. I know that indica, sativa, whatever. But people are like, "It's like that wavy kind of upbeat body buzz."

Tamara Lilien (30:11):
For some.

Sean Kady (30:12):
Yeah, exactly. Everybody's different. But I just think it's weird, because we're consuming a lot of them. People are asking for them more. I'm seeing a lot more products coming out, and I'm just wondering that where everybody's sourcing these minor cannabinoids. And if, is there a greater issue there, do you think Tamara? With I guess transparency and people not knowing that, "Hey, we just don't know." Right?

Tamara Lilien (30:33):
I mean, I think there is a big challenge there. And I think it's probably true of many kind of newly establishing industries, is that people are still kind of learning and walking the fine line between what information matters, what information do they need? Are they seeking? Do they care? I'm a purist. So for me, I prefer solventless extracts. I like flower, that's just what I'm inclined towards, because it's my personal preference. Other people are totally open. They love extracts made with solvents or hydrocarbons, and they're very open, excuse me, to exploring everything under the sun. And that could include, for them, synthetic cannabinoids. If that's the case, go ahead. Realistically, brands are struggling. They need to find ways to-

Sean Kady (31:27):
Market things.

Tamara Lilien (31:28):
... to market things, and also to be cost-effective. And if a synthetic cannabinoid is cheaper than a cannabinoid that's extracted from cannabis, I can understand and appreciate why they might take that approach. Do I support it? That's a whole other conversation.

Sean Kady (31:47):
Do you have any thoughts on CBN, CBG? Have you tried any of these higher kind of dose products? And what do you think about them, experiences?

Tamara Lilien (31:55):
I am a huge supporter of flexing the minor cannabinoid muscle, and exploring-

Sean Kady (32:03):
Okay. I like that saying.

Tamara Lilien (32:05):
... everything. I mean, I'm a cannabis sommelier, I'm a cannabis educator. I have to try everything, or I at least should. And what works for me, what works for you, totally different. Some things I find I have really positive responses to, other things, eh. But I'm not even going to tell you which ones work for me and which ones don't, because I don't want to steer anyone in one direction or another, except to say, "Try minor cannabinoids."

Sean Kady (32:33):
Experiment.

Tamara Lilien (32:34):
Explore them, experiment with them. This is not all about THC, I know we always talk about it like it is, but it ain't.

Sean Kady (32:42):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (32:42):
So try some CBN, try some CBG, see how it works for you. Do you have any experience taking an oil under your tongue?

Sean Kady (32:50):
Yeah, I have. I've had a weird, I mean, I know that most people get sleepy when they take CBN. I personally find, I like CBG, I find that I get a good kind of vibe out of that. And I find that CBG, it was a good way, somebody said that, I find that I have a easy time of just... It relieves anxiety for me personally.

Tamara Lilien (33:09):
Oh, yeah, sure.

Sean Kady (33:10):
CBG. I find CBN, it kind of has the reverse effect and I think that Charlie, I know he definitely is hypersensitive to it, or it kind of can stimulate me, and keep me up.

Tamara Lilien (33:18):
So it's a perfect example.

Sean Kady (33:20):
And I looked into this, and some people do experience that, and I do like to educate folk when they come into the store. And say, "To be honest, most people get sleepy when they take CBN. I don't. I get all," I just can't turn my brain off sometimes. It's a weird one.

Tamara Lilien (33:37):
I mean, I don't think it's weird, I think it's fantastic because it highlights the individualized nature of cannabis and consumption. For example, there's some people they can take five Gravol, it does nothing to them. It doesn't relieve their nausea, it doesn't make them sleepy, it just doesn't work for them. And that's just the uniqueness of our bodies. You know how CBN works for you, so maybe if you're looking to feel stimulated, that might be what you pursue. So this is the journey of discovery, and learning how cannabis can enhance your life, and how some things, which outcomes are associated with which consumption experiences. It's great that you know that, because you've empowered yourself with that information. So as you make decisions moving forward, you have your little toolkit.

Sean Kady (34:29):
I find it fascinating, I'm finding it hard to keep up, there are so many new cannabinoids.

Tamara Lilien (34:32):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (34:33):
It's super interesting. We were talking, I once got a letter that was, it brings me to a funny story, because we got a letter in the mail. It was like a handwritten note. And I was like so closely, "This is a weird note." And it was like, "Attention: Owner." And I opened the note and it was like, "You must sell more THCV products. God will thank you. Everybody will thank you." Something, something, all really weird gibberish. It was obviously, this person was crazy.

Tamara Lilien (35:03):
Jesus loves you?

Sean Kady (35:04):
Yeah. It was from somewhere in America, too. Jesus loves you, that. I don't know, what's up with THCV? I don't even know what it is.

Tamara Lilien (35:11):
I mean, it's one of the minor cannabinoids.

Sean Kady (35:14):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (35:15):
It's produced naturally in the plant in small volumes, but like many of the minor cannabinoids, you can actually breed a plant to find one, or to create a species that ends up with a higher THCV content.

Sean Kady (35:36):
Interesting.

Tamara Lilien (35:36):
Sorry, I said that in a very inarticulate way.

Sean Kady (35:39):
No, it was beautiful.

Tamara Lilien (35:41):
Suffice it to say it's one of the many cannabinoids that can produce possible therapeutic benefits. People don't really consume it in isolation, because of the small volumes, but it's just another element that can help to give you some sort of medical or therapeutic benefit, or relief.

Sean Kady (36:06):
Ah, that gives the letter a lot more context. Okay.

Tamara Lilien (36:07):
Yeah. That is a bit weird though, God's work. I mean that person must have had some really profound experience with THCV, where they just wanted to shout it from the hilltops. "Everybody must enjoy this minor cannabinoid."

Sean Kady (36:19):
I wasn't the only one that got the letter, that's for sure.

Tamara Lilien (36:21):
Oh.

Sean Kady (36:22):
Well, I heard, I had other people in the industry who were like, "I got that letter."

Tamara Lilien (36:27):
Not signed by the Watcher?

Sean Kady (36:30):
No, not that I remember.

Tamara Lilien (36:32):
Okay, that's good. Check that show out, if you haven't watched it before. It's a good one.

Sean Kady (36:37):
Yeah, I guess I was going to say, what are you smoking right now? We'll kind of chat about that.

Tamara Lilien (36:41):
So what am I smoking right now?

Sean Kady (36:44):
Or what are you consuming? Any products you're excited about, in flowers?

Tamara Lilien (36:46):
I just actually consumed something I love.

Sean Kady (36:50):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (36:51):
Two products by Lot420.

Sean Kady (36:54):
Ooh. Yeah, yeah. They grow good stuff out of Quebec. Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (36:57):
One was called Apple Fritter, I believe.

Sean Kady (37:01):
Was that Atomic Apples?

Tamara Lilien (37:01):
Atomic Apples.

Sean Kady (37:01):
Atomic Apples, yeah.

Tamara Lilien (37:02):
Pardon me, Atomic Apples. And the other one was Orange-

Sean Kady (37:07):
Orange Cake.

Tamara Lilien (37:07):
Orange Cake. Yeah.

Sean Kady (37:08):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (37:09):
Both of them can only be described as delightful.

Sean Kady (37:14):
Delightful.

Tamara Lilien (37:14):
Just so lovely, refreshing, robust. Have you had a chance to try anything from Lot420?

Sean Kady (37:22):
Yes. We brought in their OG, one of the top shelfs we had was their, I don't actually think it's a Gelato 33?

Tamara Lilien (37:29):
Oh, yeah. Gelato 33.

Sean Kady (37:30):
It's labelled a Gelato 33, but I think it's actually a Z-Splitter. I've heard. Heard that it was marketed it as a Gelato 33-

Tamara Lilien (37:36):
Get out of town.

Sean Kady (37:37):
... which is like the Larry Bird cut, I think, is why it's 33. I did the research, so-

Tamara Lilien (37:41):
I like that.

Sean Kady (37:41):
... we put it on as the Larry Bird cut of the Gelato. It was super terpy, and I think early days when we first opened the store, we always knew that you could count on opening that jar, and it fucking was the nice, proper Gelato in there.

Tamara Lilien (37:54):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (37:54):
I did try their Atomic Apples, and the Orange Cake, both great. Different profiles. One thing I didn't enjoy was that they went to the Mylar bag.

Tamara Lilien (38:05):
Yes.

Sean Kady (38:05):
They downgraded on the Mylar bag. And I was like, "Ah."

Tamara Lilien (38:08):
That is unfortunate. And it's a perfect example of-

Sean Kady (38:11):
Cutting corners.

Tamara Lilien (38:12):
... the challenges of our industry. Because if you're paying out the ass for excise stamps, yeah. You probably have to cut corners with your packaging. But there's still, like there's right ways, and there's less right ways of doing it. So as an example, some brands aren't putting a lot of information on their package, but they're putting a QR code. And if you scan the QR, you can read all about the product from the QR. So I think there's still kind of right ways of doing it, but it's true. Realistically, if you're a brand that's using a glass jar, you're paying a ton more money per package than you are with a Mylar bag.

Sean Kady (38:52):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (38:53):
And you've got to pass those costs onto the consumer. There's just no other option for you.

Sean Kady (38:58):
There's just a consistency issue with the Mylar bag, for me.

Tamara Lilien (39:01):
Oh yeah, big time.

Sean Kady (39:01):
I find that some Mylar bags aren't... See, you just need one little tiny hole in there.

Tamara Lilien (39:05):
Totally.

Sean Kady (39:06):
You open that, and it's completely different than a proper nitrogen filled... I think that Carmel does a really good job with it. They're a company that I think does a good job, it's like a thicker Mylar. And I know that they do fill them with nitrogen, which I do think helps with the leakage and stuff. Oxygen.

Tamara Lilien (39:18):
And I believe they have humidity packs too.

Sean Kady (39:22):
They do. And one thing I wanted to plug before we go is, we're doing a Puffco giveaway.

Tamara Lilien (39:25):
Nice.

Sean Kady (39:26):
We got two new Puffcos. The two brand new Puffcos Peak Pros.

Tamara Lilien (39:31):
Who doesn't want a Puffco?

Sean Kady (39:33):
Right? So to all our listeners out there, check out our Insta, follow us on Instagram, @higherorbit. We got the post up, there's a link, or go to the website, higherorbit.ca.

Tamara Lilien (39:42):
Nice.

Sean Kady (39:43):
There are many different ways to enter. We're going to be giving them away at the end of the month. Also, if you subscribe, the first month subscription is going to MS Walks, Sarah's Soldiers.

Tamara Lilien (39:55):
Love that.

Sean Kady (39:55):
Yeah, and we're going to match those donations as well. We'll kind of give everybody a little more detail on that.

Tamara Lilien (40:00):
Great cause.

Sean Kady (40:01):
Coming up, great cause. Shout out to Mike. Also, we've got a little gift for you, Tamara.

Tamara Lilien (40:06):
What?

Sean Kady (40:07):
Yeah, we're going to leave that there.

Tamara Lilien (40:07):
Just shut the door.

Sean Kady (40:10):
I'm going to send you, I can't send you on your way empty-handed.

Tamara Lilien (40:12):
A Connoisseur's Guide to Cannabis. Well, seems like it was made for me. By Ellen Holland, too. Nice.

Sean Kady (40:19):
Nice.

Tamara Lilien (40:19):
I love it. Thank you.

Sean Kady (40:21):
Editor at High Times, I believe, or CEO.

Tamara Lilien (40:23):
Got some good reading ahead of me, fantastic. Can't wait.

Sean Kady (40:28):
Yeah, it was a pleasure having you on the show.

Tamara Lilien (40:30):
Thanks so much for having me co-host.

Sean Kady (40:31):
Don't forget to follow you, I don't want to butcher your Instagram, so please.

Tamara Lilien (40:35):
Cannalily.consulting, or you can check me at my website, cannalily.ca.

Sean Kady (40:41):
Charles is back next episode, guys. We'll see you soon.

Tamara Lilien (40:44):
Cheers.