Ciao Tamara, arrivederci Charlie!

 Tamara Lilien steps in as co-host while Charlie takes a vacation. Tamara discusses her background and Cannalily Consulting, her personal experience with cannabis, and her role as a cannabis sommelier, educator and thought leader. Peter Miller of Purple Hills makes a surprise visit with a new strain, leading to an impromptu review and discussion of its characteristics. Sean and Tamara also highlight the importance of women in the cannabis industry and the challenges they face. The episode concludes with Sean asking a tough question near the end of the show leaving the hosts and crew in stitches.

Transcript

Sean Kady (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sean Kady.

Tamara Lilien (00:02):
And I'm Tamara Lilien.

Sean Kady (00:04):
And this is HigherOrbit.

(00:18):
Welcome, everybody. Episode nine. I can't believe we're already here. It's been a whirlwind. We're cranking out some really good stuff. I don't know if everybody noticed but Charlie is not with us this week. He is off to Italy. We say Ciao, Carlos.

Tamara Lilien (00:37):
Ciao.

Sean Kady (00:37):
Ciao.

(00:38):
And we welcome a very special guest to the show. Big fan. Level 2 sommelier, cannabis educator, certified cannabis educator as a matter of fact, and consultant at CannaLily Consulting where she educates at CannSell which is the Ontario's education system for budtenders for those that don't know.

(01:02):
Welcome to the pod.

Tamara Lilien (01:03):
Thank you so much for having me. Thrilled to be here.

Sean Kady (01:05):
Yeah. I'm super excited to dive into education with you because I think it's a really important part of our industry that doesn't get talked about enough. I knew when Charlie was away that we wanted to change it up a little bit and have a different dynamic and thought that this would be a great opportunity to just for you to explain what cannabis education looks like in 2023. And let's just start with... I mentioned what CannSell is, but for our listeners that don't, what is CannSell and what do you do for them?

Tamara Lilien (01:37):
So definitely happy to start there.

(01:40):
So CannSell is the provincially mandated education programme for all cannabis retail staff. So anyone who works as a budtender in a retail store has to get the CannSell standard certification. And I am doing some consulting work for them, essentially rewriting that programme to update it with more appropriate information that reflects the times that we find ourselves. And it was initially-

Sean Kady (02:09):
Thank God.

Tamara Lilien (02:10):
... written pre legalisation. So a lot has changed since then. And that's just one of the many things that I do with my company, CannaLily Consulting.

Sean Kady (02:20):
Yeah. I don't want to hate on CannSell, but I think it's really good that you're looking at that as somebody who did the programme and our producer, Carly, did too because she budtends as well and everybody has to take it. So everybody that works here has it. It's a little bit tedious.

(02:36):
And I do think that I learned a lot of good stuff in there but a lot of it is just very... It seems excessive and I know that cannabis isn't alcohol when you compare it to what is the one... It's CannSell for-

Tamara Lilien (02:49):
Smart Serve.

Sean Kady (02:50):
Smarts Serve. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

(02:52):
Now I do... What do you think about that? I know that comparison comes up a lot, but alcohol... And there's so much more to talk about in weed, right?

Tamara Lilien (03:01):
There's a lot of ways that you can compare them, but beyond them both being intoxicants, I'm not sure that I like to put them in the same category.

Sean Kady (03:11):
No, definitely not. I guess there's no... The only other kind of certification I can think of where you would need to do something for a job like that, right?

Tamara Lilien (03:19):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So from that perspective, it is similar. I've never taken Smart Serve, so I really can't speak to the quality of the material.

Sean Kady (03:27):
Right, totally.

(03:30):
I guess we switch it up a little bit. What does being a level 2 sommelier mean to you and how does one get that accreditation, I guess?

Tamara Lilien (03:38):
So there are a lot of programmes that are available where you can pursue some level of sommelier certification. I have taken two, CannaReps which is out of BC and then another programme called the Interpener, Interpener, interpreting terpenes programme from the Trichome Institute out of San Francisco.

(03:58):
And to me, I think being a cannabis sommelier is really developing and fostering a deep appreciation for cannabis in all facets. So how it grows, how we define good quality cannabis, how it affects our body, different advances in research, and really exposing yourself to all of the ins and outs such that you can be a reputable and reliable source of information for those around you.

Sean Kady (04:32):
Yeah. I think you said that very well. I know a lot of people would love to say, "I'm a..." I think you have a lot of people's dream job, I guess I'll say it, but I know it's not easy work. So I guess, what do you say to those people that would want to review cannabis and want to be a cannabis consultant?

Tamara Lilien (04:54):
So it's not easy work and there's a lot of hustle involved-

Sean Kady (04:59):
Totally.

Tamara Lilien (04:59):
... and you have to be very self-driven. But I think that if you're passionate about cannabis and you feel like you have a unique voice and you have something to offer, why not put yourself out there, reach out to brands, maybe do some reviews on your own and see if they have legs, see if they resonate, see what kind of feedback you get from people and start there.

(05:21):
But the journey really begins with a deep love and curiosity about cannabis and a desire to foster that and use it to develop your career and your personal and professional skillset.

Sean Kady (05:38):
Yeah. As somebody that knows you very well. It oozes out of your pores. I mean that as a compliment.

Tamara Lilien (05:45):
Well, thank you.

(05:45):
Look, I live, eat, and breathe cannabis, so it's a huge part of my life and I appreciate to know that that's palpable.

Sean Kady (05:52):
Yeah. Before you were in cannabis, I guess you made a transition before you were being a sommelier and educator, I guess you were doing some healthcare work, you were in palliative care, is that correct?

Tamara Lilien (06:02):
Yeah, yeah. So I worked in academic healthcare actually at Sunnybrook for over a decade and I was doing project management and quality improvement for a team of palliative care doctors and nurses.

(06:13):
And for those of you who don't know what that is, I hope you don't know because that means you've never been exposed to it. But palliative care primarily deals with complex pain and symptom management and end of life care. So some pretty heavy subject matter there.

Sean Kady (06:27):
A hundred percent. Some really heavy stuff. And I'm sure that wasn't easy.

(06:32):
I think you mentioned that you didn't, but for me, cannabis and palliative care makes so much sense. Was there ever any transition there or how did you go get from that palliative care into the cannabis industry I guess?

Tamara Lilien (06:48):
So unfortunately, at the time that I was in healthcare, this was before legalisation and even medical access was still relatively new and there wasn't a huge push to incorporate plant-based medicine into palliative care.

(07:07):
Having said that, at the time when I was working there, I was having some of my own health problems and I pursued a number of different specialists to try and find a solution. I was put on a whack load of pharmaceuticals and each one, the side effects were worse than the symptoms that they purported to cure.

(07:28):
So as a result of that, I knew that those approaches weren't for me and eventually, I found a specialist who was willing to prescribe me medical cannabis and that really changed my life.

Sean Kady (07:40):
That's where I was going with it. I was like... Because this is pre legalisation. So I'd imagine even at that point, I remember going through the medical process, it could be tough some points and a lot of doctors didn't believe in it. In those times, did you find that you were galvanised by cannabis related misinformation, stereotypes, or any kind of stigmas I guess when you were in palliative care and trying to get your cannabis, I don't know, medical licence?

Tamara Lilien (08:09):
So interestingly, I had a specific encounter with the physician who prescribed me medical cannabis that really inspired me to make this move.

Sean Kady (08:22):
Wow.

Tamara Lilien (08:22):
So eventually, I found one physician who expressed an openness or willingness to prescribe me medical cannabis. But he said, "Well, since you are intelligent and articulate and you have a full-time job and you're obviously not going to be sitting around on the couch smoking weed all day-

Sean Kady (08:40):
Oh, yeah.

Tamara Lilien (08:40):
... I guess I'll write you a prescription."

(08:42):
And at the time, I was like, "Oh, fantastic. This is wonderful." And I walked away saying, "Wait a minute."

Sean Kady (08:53):
"Did he just say that to me?" Right? Or she. He or she, I don't know who the person.

Tamara Lilien (08:53):
Yeah. So if this physician would not have deemed me sufficiently articulate or intelligent or well-spoken, maybe I would not have qualified for plant-based medicine and how fuck is that?

Sean Kady (09:07):
You're right.

Tamara Lilien (09:07):
That it was really his own personal judgement of me as a person that granted me access to plant-based medicine. Otherwise, I would've continued to seek it from non-legal channels because I was using it to help me with my medical condition.

(09:32):
So that really opened my eyes to the fact that we're currently in a system that wasn't necessarily supporting the needs or best interests of patients.

Sean Kady (09:47):
Okay. Wow. That's some heavy stuff there, man.

(09:52):
I guess, do you remember how big the script was he gave you or... I guess you're not in touch with this person. I was like, "Should we show this person out?" But now obviously like, "Fuck now. Fuck this person."

Tamara Lilien (10:01):
I will mention he actually was a brilliant physician and helped me tremendously but he was old school and he was an older gentleman. And I'm sure his perspectives on cannabis were largely archaic and old fashioned and a product of the medical system that he came up in. Most medical schools don't even teach about the endocannabinoid system even now.

Sean Kady (10:28):
True.

Tamara Lilien (10:29):
So we're not... There's a real disconnect between the needs of the general public and the willingness of the medical community to meet those needs and engage in that kind of journey of identifying best products, best practises, approaches to dosing, etc., for various diseases.

Sean Kady (10:55):
Right. Do you think that your medical journey is part of the reason that you got so passionate and wanted to take your sommelier courses and...

Tamara Lilien (11:05):
Absolutely.

Sean Kady (11:06):
Yeah, for sure.

Tamara Lilien (11:10):
Oh, yeah, because-

Sean Kady (11:10):
Tell us a little bit about that journey I guess.

Tamara Lilien (11:10):
So this was before legalisation and I saw this course advertised and it was a two-day cannabis sommelier course.

(11:19):
And I remember I called my parents and I was talking to my mom and I said, "Mom, this sounds like such a cool opportunity." She said, "Just wait. Just wait till it's legal. Once it's legal, then you can see what the options are." I said, "No, mom, I want to get ahead of the curve. I want to get this certification now so that I can-

Sean Kady (11:40):
"I want to be one of the first people-

Tamara Lilien (11:42):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (11:42):
... with this certification. I want to get out there right away." Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (11:46):
Exactly. And given what I had learned in healthcare and what I had been exposed to, I really felt like I had something to offer.

(11:57):
And in those two days working with CannaReps for my sommelier level 1, it changed my life. I was exposed to approaches to cannabis appreciation that I just had never had any insight into and it really opened my eyes to how I could help to evolve the rhetoric around cannabis.

Sean Kady (12:27):
Love that. That's awesome, man. I think that your passion, again, oozing. Oozing.

(12:34):
Moving on. I guess, what's the mission of CannaLily Consulting? Tell us a little bit more about that. I know that your biggest client is CannSell, but I don't know, what's in the future? What do you guys got in store?

Tamara Lilien (12:45):
So mission, vision, it all is essentially what I just said. So to evolve the rhetoric around cannabis, to elevate the discourse around cannabis, to change the way we talk about it, we think about it, we interact with it, to continue to remove some of the stereotypes and stigmas that continue to persist some of the stoner stereotypes.

(13:13):
And there was once a brand that had a sticker they released and I still think about it because it said, "Be the successful stoner that society says doesn't exist."

Sean Kady (13:24):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (13:24):
And that really resonated with me because I think we live in a new world now where cannabis can be a wellness component of your life and you can be a contributing member of society and be very successful and live a happy, meaningful, fulfilled life with cannabis to support that or enhance or even ameliorate it.

Sean Kady (13:47):
Yeah. I guess as a cannabis educator, I did... This is the top of my head. I was thinking, "You must go on a lot of dispensaries." What's your biggest pet peeve when something that a budtender doesn't know or something common that you find as a misconception, I don't know, that needs to be talked about I guess?

Tamara Lilien (14:08):
I'm not inclined to-

Sean Kady (14:10):
Sorry about the garbage truck too, by the way.

Tamara Lilien (14:11):
Oh.

Sean Kady (14:12):
Reminder, we're in the back of 821 Queen Street West.

Tamara Lilien (14:14):
Hey, listen, garbage-

Sean Kady (14:15):
I forgot to sneak that in earlier.

Tamara Lilien (14:16):
So garbage has got to get picked up.

Sean Kady (14:18):
Yeah, someone's got to take out the trash. You got it, Tamara.

Tamara Lilien (14:22):
Exactly.

(14:23):
So I definitely don't really want to bash any budtender but what I will say is we haven't fully designed a system that supports the ongoing continuing education needs of budtenders. So we are putting budtenders in a position where what's being asked of them and what they're able to do, there's a real disconnect between them.

Sean Kady (14:55):
I totally agree.

(14:56):
We will be right back with Tamara Lilien.

(15:11):
And welcome back.

(15:13):
The garbage has left the building.

(15:14):
We're here with Tamara Lilien, CannaLily Consulting.

Tamara Lilien (15:19):
Happy to be with you, Sean.

Sean Kady (15:20):
Yeah, we were... Where were we? We were chatting, we were picking up about cannabis education and what it means. Continuing education. Right?

Tamara Lilien (15:29):
Yeah. I'm curious, Sean, what do you think about cannabis education and budtenders? Do you think budtenders should be forced to be re-certified for, well, not forced, but you think there should be a mandate that CannSell does a recertification so after five years or whatever, you have to go and do standard again?

Sean Kady (15:46):
I think that if it wasn't long and you kept it interesting then that would be a... That's a great question. I think it would be good and it would be healthy and a good thing because I think in five years so much changes.

Tamara Lilien (15:56):
Absolutely. And what about-

Sean Kady (15:57):
I think trends and stuff in cannabis are such a big thing, especially with cultivars and all the breeding that's going on, it's nuts, wouldn't you think so? I'm assuming you think we would benefit too?

Tamara Lilien (16:08):
Well, so there's that, or you could do some sort of annual level up.

Sean Kady (16:14):
Ooh. Levels of certification in budtending.

Tamara Lilien (16:16):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (16:17):
That makes sense to me.

Tamara Lilien (16:19):
You do your level one then the following year level two-

Sean Kady (16:21):
Yellow belt.

Tamara Lilien (16:21):
Yeah, exactly.

Sean Kady (16:22):
Yeah. Orange belt and then you'd work your way up to the black belt or something.

Tamara Lilien (16:25):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (16:26):
I don't know. For lack of a better-

Tamara Lilien (16:27):
No, it's a good analogy, right?

Sean Kady (16:29):
Yeah. Craft your skills.

Tamara Lilien (16:31):
It's an interesting thing to think of. Imagine a system where based on your level of training that was related to your level of compensation.

Sean Kady (16:43):
Yeah. Let's say you were... Yeah, I think in a world where extracts, maybe you're an extract expert budtender and you know everything about extraction, you can explain the ins and outs of how every extract in that dispensary's fridge is made. There's value there.

Tamara Lilien (17:01):
Absolutely. Even having an expert in every product category in your store, you've got the edible person, you've got the extract person, you've got the topical person, and they subsequently are the go-to when customers come into store, and then they also can teach their budtender colleagues around some of the details that they might not be aware of.

Sean Kady (17:24):
Yes. I totally agree with you. I think we're onto something.

Tamara Lilien (17:28):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (17:28):
We'll pick that up again I guess later.

(17:31):
I was reading on your profile that you were part of a cannabis curation committee?

Tamara Lilien (17:37):
I was. So-

Sean Kady (17:38):
That's pretty cool.

Tamara Lilien (17:38):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (17:39):
I guess I just was like maybe tell us a little bit about that. How did that come about and what was the experience like?

Tamara Lilien (17:45):
Well, it was a crazy wild ride.

(17:48):
In 2019, many of you probably remember a company called AHLOT had a marketing campaign saying, "Hey, we'll pay you to smoke weed." So as you can imagine, every single person and their mom applied, 25,000 people applied for the job, and five of us got the job. And I was one of them.

(18:13):
So for a three-year period, a company paid me to blindly evaluate cannabis cultivars more commonly called strains and make recommendations on which ones they should bring to market and sell.

Sean Kady (18:29):
That's pretty damn cool.

(18:31):
You said there were 25,000 people. So the five... What was the process like? Did you have to do pre-evaluation and send them to them or...

Tamara Lilien (18:39):
So you didn't have to do that but it involved multiple interviews. You had to submit a video of yourself and I actually did a rhyming video and I did the Love Actually with the placards where you're holding placards and you drop them as you go. So that was the approach I took and I guess it resonated.

Sean Kady (19:00):
That's original.

Tamara Lilien (19:01):
And I remember there was one line, "If you don't know a calyx from a leaf and you don't know the difference between hash or kief..."

Sean Kady (19:08):
Oh, okay.

Tamara Lilien (19:11):
I had a whole little rhyme there, and I guess they found it engaging. So after the video and multiple interviews, I got a call, they threw balloons at the screen. It was a whole thing. And it was three years of craziness. And since then, I've had the privilege of evaluating over 200 cultivars of cannabis for various brands through research and development, pheno hunting and...

(19:40):
I like working with brands because they know I'm not going to just say, "Oh, this is great and here's all the reasons why this is awesome flower." I'm going to give them constructive feedback.

Sean Kady (19:49):
Yeah. I'm curious, how long does an evaluation take? It must take a while, right?

Tamara Lilien (19:56):
I would say if I'm going to do it thoughtfully probably two hours. So I would spend probably close to an hour with flower before I even rolled it up.

Sean Kady (20:08):
Fair... Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Tamara Lilien (20:10):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (20:10):
You really got to get in there.

Tamara Lilien (20:12):
Oh, yeah. Using the microscope... We're using our eyes, we're using our nose, we're using our hands.

(20:16):
You know what it's all about. We've been to Lit Lounge together. We've done some evals together.

Sean Kady (20:22):
That means a lot coming from you. I'm hoping that I can learn a thing or two actually our time together. We have our loupes here and we actually got our new piece of equipment, this beautiful microscope that's in front of you. So I believe actually we're going to maybe get into a review. We are, as a matter of fact, going to get into review. I don't want to give out too much, but I guess how do you evaluate and assess cannabis cultivars? I guess that's a big question, but very loosely. What's most important?

Tamara Lilien (20:51):
Well, so I'm going to throw that back at you.

Sean Kady (20:53):
Ooh.

Tamara Lilien (20:53):
When a brand drops off a sample, let's say, and you open the jar, what's the first thing you do?

Sean Kady (21:00):
Honestly, first thing, I'm going to say, I'm looking for an aroma because I think even before I can look at it, I want that smell to jump out at me. If it's actually going to be quality cannabis, in my opinion, you should smell the aroma without even having to look in the jar once you pop that seal, I would say.

Tamara Lilien (21:17):
Okay, so-

Sean Kady (21:19):
Am I crazy? What's my approach? Should I back up the truck or what do you think?

Tamara Lilien (21:23):
Not crazy. Makes perfect sense that you start with your nose. But I am going to do a mini myth bust with you-

Sean Kady (21:29):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (21:29):
... right now, if that's okay.

Sean Kady (21:30):
Please.

Tamara Lilien (21:31):
So even though it's true that we want flower, that's loud, right?

Sean Kady (21:36):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (21:36):
We want flower that is very robustly aromatic, but if you open a jar and you get slapped in the face with those terps, it means the terps are in the environment, they're not in the bud. So those terps are on the way out. They've oxidised, they're in the air, and they're essentially going to go out into the environment.

Sean Kady (21:59):
They're going to evaporate and be gone. It's like that jar's been in heat or something and it's been rattled around and that's what you're saying to me. Okay, good to know.

Tamara Lilien (22:07):
Exactly. Yeah.

(22:07):
So we want really smelly, stinky buds but if there's so much aroma in the jar, the risk is that there's actually less aroma in the bud because it means that the terpenes are on their way out.

Sean Kady (22:21):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (22:22):
So we want an aroma, but the strongest aroma that we want to smell is when we bring the bud to our nose and give it a little squeeze.

Sean Kady (22:29):
Okay. That makes a lot of sense to me. And that's my true test. I'm not going to fully say, "It's just bad weed if I open the jar and I can't smell it." I do agree with you there. But thank you for myth busting that.

(22:43):
As far as appearance goes, what's a number one thing you can tell even without a scope or a microscope that you look for?

Tamara Lilien (22:50):
So for me, smell is definitely important, but I always start with my eyes.

Sean Kady (22:55):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (22:56):
So I just look at the bud and I'm looking at how the bud was formed as it grew and I'm looking at the colour of the bud.

Sean Kady (23:04):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (23:04):
So the nodal spacing, for example. So what kind of space is there between the stems that are off shooting off the main stock?

(23:15):
And I'm looking at the colour. Is it multiple colours of green? Are there some purple, some blue hues? Or is it looking like yellow or brown?

Sean Kady (23:26):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (23:26):
We all know what a dead plant looks like. Think about dead grass-

Sean Kady (23:31):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (23:31):
... on a lawn. It's yellow and brown. Or any dead plant.

Sean Kady (23:36):
That's the worst. That's my worst nightmare. I agree with you. I hate the swampy brown. That's the worst, right?

Tamara Lilien (23:39):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (23:40):
You can already tell it's like, "I don't really want to smoke this. [inaudible 00:23:43]."

Tamara Lilien (23:43):
Even just from looking at it, you're like, "Oh, this looks like it was cured in someone's barn. It doesn't smell good. And it's yellow and brown and tonnes of sticks are on its stems and sugar or even fan leaves." Right off the hop.

Sean Kady (24:03):
I guess it's safe to say if you're colorblind, you can't be a cannabis sommelier.

Tamara Lilien (24:07):
Well, definitely-

Sean Kady (24:08):
Sorry to all those out there that are aspiring.

Tamara Lilien (24:10):
Definitely no discrimination on my part. I think if you want to do it and you're colorblind, you just get creative and maybe you work with a friend who does your colour assessments for you. But colour definitely matters when we're talking about quality of bud.

Sean Kady (24:28):
Yes, it really does. Thanks so much. I guess we'll leave it there for now and we'll come back.

(24:35):
I think I heard a knock at the door.

Tamara Lilien (24:37):
Ooh.

Sean Kady (24:37):
Did you hear something? Someone's coming into our orbit. Did you hear that, Tamara?

Tamara Lilien (24:41):
Special guest. Can't wait to find out who it is.

Sean Kady (24:42):
Uh-oh, is it a surprise special guest?

Tamara Lilien (24:44):
Uh-oh.

Sean Kady (24:44):
We'll be right back with Tamara Lilien of CannaLily Consulting. You can follow us at HigherOrbit. Do you have an Instagram?

Tamara Lilien (24:51):
Yeah, you can check me out. C-A-N-N-A-L-I-L-Y, dot consulting, @cannalily.consulting. We'll see you guys on the flip side.

Sean Kady (25:06):
And we're back with my special co-host, Tamara Lilien from CannaLily Consulting, here on episode nine.

(25:16):
Oh, shit. Charlie.

Tamara Lilien (25:18):
Oh, hey, bud.

Charlie Kady (25:19):
I'm crashing your show.

Sean Kady (25:20):
Yeah, I thought you were on the way to Italy.

Charlie Kady (25:24):
No. One more [inaudible 00:25:25]. I got to hold it down. I just wanted to send a farewell and say ciao to everyone. I'm going to go-

Sean Kady (25:32):
Arrivederci, Carlos.

Charlie Kady (25:33):
... find some hashish. You're in good hands with Tamara. You're going to have a great couple episodes here and I'll miss you all.

Sean Kady (25:40):
We love you, Charlie.

Charlie Kady (25:41):
So ciao.

Sean Kady (25:42):
Have a great time in Italy and we look forward to hearing about you scoring that hash you talking about.

Charlie Kady (25:48):
I'll be listening on the road. I'll see you guys soon.

Sean Kady (25:59):
We'll see you soon.

Charlie Kady (25:59):
Ciao.

Tamara Lilien (25:59):
Bon voyage.

Charlie Kady (25:59):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (26:00):
Welcome back.

(26:00):
Who the hell is that? Carly? Who is that?

(26:07):
Oh, no way.

Tamara Lilien (26:10):
What?

Sean Kady (26:11):
Get on over here. Who? What'd you stop in? You got gifts and everything?

Speaker 4 (26:15):
I do. I do.

Tamara Lilien (26:15):
Oh, special guest-

Sean Kady (26:18):
Walking during the show.

Tamara Lilien (26:18):
... entering into the building.

Sean Kady (26:18):
Yeah. Our first guest, actually Tamara and I, her first as a co-host, we got John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos from Purple Hills. You flip that around. We got the backside to the camera there.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:31):
How's everyone doing?

Sean Kady (26:32):
Yeah. Welcome to the podcast, brother.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:34):
Great to be here.

Sean Kady (26:35):
What... Yeah, you're just cruising Queen West and-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:38):
I am.

Sean Kady (26:39):
... you thought you come say hello?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:39):
Thought I'd get out of the facility for a day and come check out the coolest shop in town.

Sean Kady (26:44):
Thanks, man. Thanks for joining us today.

(26:46):
I think we're going to do a little... Are we going to do a review of this?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:50):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (26:51):
This lovely flower you brought us.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:52):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (26:53):
You want to tell us a little bit about this community rotational skew I believe that you guys are launching? Is that-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (26:59):
For sure. Well, community... It's always been about supporting independent growers. So we've just expanded that network beyond Creemore.

Sean Kady (27:06):
Okay.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:07):
This is actually our first offering of purple label flour. So that'll be a rotational skew.

Sean Kady (27:14):
Okay.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:14):
And they're-

Sean Kady (27:15):
It's more premium, right?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:15):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (27:15):
My understanding of this is that it's supposed to be a really, really top-notch in there, right? You guys really excited about this?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:20):
Exactly. We're really excited to put our best foot forward with this one. And the first strain is actually frosted cookies. So-

Sean Kady (27:27):
Frosted cookies.

Tamara Lilien (27:27):
Ooh.

Sean Kady (27:28):
31.23% I think and over 3% terps. 3.3 I think.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:34):
You got it.

Sean Kady (27:34):
Yeah? Community purple labels. Carefully curated offering of high quality strains, I'm going off the sheet here, of flower cultivated and harvested by a collective of independent growers just like you said.

(27:47):
So should we get into it?

Tamara Lilien (27:50):
Crack the bag, right?

Sean Kady (27:51):
Who's going to open it?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:51):
Who wants to do the honours?

Tamara Lilien (27:51):
I think it should be you.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (27:51):
[inaudible 00:27:55].

Tamara Lilien (27:51):
Oh, wow. How can I say no?

Sean Kady (27:51):
[inaudible 00:27:58] the honours.

Tamara Lilien (27:59):
I'm not going to lie. The childproofing does get me sometimes. So we'll see how that goes.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (28:08):
Feel like we need a drum roll.

Sean Kady (28:09):
I know I was about to say that and-

Tamara Lilien (28:10):
There we go.

Sean Kady (28:10):
... sound effects.

Tamara Lilien (28:13):
I'll take a page out of your book and start with my nose.

Sean Kady (28:16):
There you go.

(28:17):
Well, it's seven grammes. I feel like when you have three and a half, it's easier to get a nice punch of smell off of a bigger amount of flower. I don't know.

Tamara Lilien (28:25):
I agree. I agree. Especially for reviewing, it's nice to be able to see some different bud sizes. There's some smaller ones, some nice big ones in here. I think I'll pass it around.

Sean Kady (28:34):
Sure. Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (28:34):
You guys get your noses all up in there.

Sean Kady (28:36):
Johnny, what's going on, man? You've seen this before, I assume.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (28:38):
I have seen this a few times.

Sean Kady (28:39):
All right. All right.

Tamara Lilien (28:41):
Not his first rodeo.

Sean Kady (28:43):
They got the Boost Integra pack in there. I've never asked you, Tamara. Do you have any opinions on those?

Tamara Lilien (28:48):
Yeah. Humidity, restoration, and preservation is important.

Sean Kady (28:53):
And I guess the difference is... Am I mistaken though? I think a boost is sugar and what are-

Tamara Lilien (28:59):
Boveda is the other one,

Sean Kady (29:00):
Is salt or whatever? Do you have a preference? Does it matter or does it really change anything? The terps are...

Tamara Lilien (29:05):
I'm going to abstain-

Sean Kady (29:07):
For having commentary on that?

Tamara Lilien (29:08):
... for the purposes of this conversation. But I will just say, categorically, it's important and advisable to put some form of humidity restoration in your product. In the same way, after I buy flower, I would take it out of that package with the humidity restoration packet and pop it in a glass jar.

Sean Kady (29:30):
It is super old school Girl Scout cookie thing off of there.

Tamara Lilien (29:33):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (29:33):
I don't know about you, but what did you think?

Tamara Lilien (29:36):
I like it. I think it smells nice. There's some nice robust scents in there. As mentioned, I like the fact that there are different bud sizes for us to review and we've got our loupes.

Sean Kady (29:47):
Yeah. Thank you for bringing my... I got my CannaLily Consulting tool all prepped-

Tamara Lilien (29:51):
That's right.

Sean Kady (29:51):
... and ready to go.

Tamara Lilien (29:51):
We're good to go.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (29:52):
That's right.

Tamara Lilien (29:52):
And we've got a large one as well so we can show our audience what we're actually taking a look at.

(29:58):
So should we dump these buds out and make each rolls-

Sean Kady (30:00):
Yeah.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (30:00):
[inaudible 00:30:02].

Tamara Lilien (30:01):
... then get started.

Sean Kady (30:02):
Do you want a tray? You could put it on this one.

Tamara Lilien (30:11):
Oh, sure.

Sean Kady (30:11):
There you go. That's a little bit easier. It's just like-

Tamara Lilien (30:11):
The big jar.

Sean Kady (30:11):
... black surface.

Tamara Lilien (30:11):
Is that it? Is that all of it? Oh, no.

Sean Kady (30:11):
I was about to say it-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (30:11):
That's a little light.

Tamara Lilien (30:11):
It's little too sticky in there. There we go.

Sean Kady (30:18):
There we go. That looks like a quarter.

Tamara Lilien (30:19):
Oh. No. One more. One more to go. Nope. She's a sticky-

Sean Kady (30:24):
She's sticky one, eh?

Tamara Lilien (30:26):
She's a sticky little bugger.

Sean Kady (30:27):
Sticky girl.

Tamara Lilien (30:27):
Always a good thing.

Sean Kady (30:29):
Did you get a baked goods off that? I thought I got a really... It reminds me of some really old Girl Scout cookies.

Tamara Lilien (30:34):
So what-

Sean Kady (30:35):
Do you guys know what the cross is?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (30:37):
Actually, no, I'm not quite sure what the cross is on.

Sean Kady (30:39):
We'll get back to you on that one. I'm going to ask Carly to look it up or something, my producer, we're looking into that.

Tamara Lilien (30:44):
So why don't you grab a bud and bring it to your nose?

Sean Kady (30:49):
I know exactly which one I'm grabbing.

Tamara Lilien (30:50):
So I always like to bring it to my nose, give it a squeeze, and let the bud breathe its scent into my nose. So I don't squeeze it too hard because I'm not trying to kill all the trichomes there.

Sean Kady (31:02):
Breathe its scent into your nose.

Tamara Lilien (31:04):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (31:04):
I love that terminology.

Tamara Lilien (31:07):
So lots of inhaling going on over here. So what do you think?

Sean Kady (31:11):
Yeah. Good sound effects, I'm sure.

Tamara Lilien (31:11):
What do you think, Sean? Can you notice a difference from what we were talking about, the terpenes that are hanging out in the bag versus really getting your nose up in there?

Sean Kady (31:20):
Yeah. I don't know about you but I definitely get some vanilla. You get some vanilla? Am I crazy?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (31:27):
I was getting a sweet kind of cakey-

Sean Kady (31:29):
Sweet. Creamy.

Tamara Lilien (31:30):
I smell baked goods. I smell-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (31:31):
Vanilla goes with cake, with bakers, right?

Tamara Lilien (31:33):
Yeah. A little bit of fruit, a little bit of earth. Definitely like a robust terpene profile. There's a lot to talk about.

Sean Kady (31:41):
There's something I can't put my finger on either which I do like. I like when there's a je ne sais quoi [inaudible 00:31:45], you're like, "What is that? I can't put my finger on it."

Tamara Lilien (31:48):
The best type of bud I think we can all agree is one where there's so much scent to it that you can actually have a discussion about it and say, "Well, oh, I smell this flower." "Oh, really? I smell this flower." And just playing with our palettes and exploring or flexing our gustatory muscles as the case may be.

Sean Kady (32:11):
So when I'm using my loupe, Tamara, what should I be looking for here?

Tamara Lilien (32:15):
All right. So let's just do a super quick breakdown on how you would use one of these loupes.

Sean Kady (32:22):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (32:23):
So this is called a jeweler's loupe, more commonly used for currency or to look at various types of jewellery. So you pull out the eyepiece, you hold the loupe between your middle finger and your thumb. So your pointer finger's free. You push the viewer up so that you can see the trichome expression.

Sean Kady (32:45):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (32:45):
And what we're looking for is how many trichomes there are. So are they dense, how big the heads are, and the colour of the heads. So those three indicators, those three elements are how we would evaluate the quality of the trichome expression.

Sean Kady (33:05):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (33:05):
So when you take a look, what are you seeing? Are you seeing a tonne of trichomes? Are you not seeing that many?

(33:10):
And I also would mention for the purposes of quality assessment, I actually recommend, and forgive me because this is a beautiful bud, but to actually crack your bud, Sean-

Sean Kady (33:21):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (33:22):
So you're looking at the external trichome cover and it's a reasonable assumption that the bud is bounced around the bag and some of the external trichomes might have wiped off on the side of the bag. Most of us-

Sean Kady (33:34):
Like the heads.

Tamara Lilien (33:35):
... when you see a jar-

Sean Kady (33:35):
... some people will say that the heads have knocked off.

Tamara Lilien (33:36):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (33:36):
She's jostling around in that bag a little bit.

Tamara Lilien (33:38):
So when you see a bag and there is kind of some smear on the side, you know that means the trichomes have wiped off.

(33:45):
So for the benefits of this assessment, let's crack the bud and let's look at the internal trichome representation so we can actually see what's truly going on and not what's going on. But-

Sean Kady (33:58):
That's a great little tidbit.

Tamara Lilien (33:58):
... banging around.

Sean Kady (33:59):
I didn't think about that. That's awesome. Thank you for that knowledge.

Tamara Lilien (34:01):
Yeah, of course.

(34:03):
So now what are you seeing when you look-

Sean Kady (34:04):
I'm seeing-

Tamara Lilien (34:05):
... at the [inaudible 00:34:06].

Sean Kady (34:05):
... a lot more heads in there.

Tamara Lilien (34:06):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (34:07):
It's crazy. I think it's very true to the name frosted. The frosted fruit cake we're looking at here.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (34:14):
And Girl Scout cookies is one of the crosses on that.

Sean Kady (34:16):
So I was correct about that.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (34:18):
You were correct on that.

Sean Kady (34:20):
Okay. I do like the moisture level too. It's very dense.

Tamara Lilien (34:24):
Yeah. Let's talk about the moisture a little bit. When you're assessing moisture, what do you look at?

Sean Kady (34:29):
What do I look at? I guess I like spongy but I like it to bounce back. Does that make sense?

Tamara Lilien (34:35):
It makes perfect sense.

Sean Kady (34:36):
And I guess... Yeah. And if there's a stem, you want to hear it just barely crinkle a little bit. It should be not dry dry, but just the exterior of the stem in my opinion.

Tamara Lilien (34:49):
Sure, sure.

Sean Kady (34:50):
I guess that's what I look for.

Tamara Lilien (34:51):
And imagine if you squished it and it crumbled into dust.

Sean Kady (34:56):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (34:56):
Obviously, way too dry. Or if you squished it gently but you left a fingerprint, probably a bit too much water content in that.

Sean Kady (35:06):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (35:07):
So that's why we're really looking for that sponginess where when we give it a squeeze just like this, it's sponging right back out to its original shape which tells us that the moisture content is arguably pretty close to perfect.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (35:21):
You want that bounce back?

Tamara Lilien (35:22):
Yeah, exactly.

Sean Kady (35:24):
I'm pretty happy with that.

Tamara Lilien (35:24):
You're looking for that bounce back.

Sean Kady (35:25):
I'm pretty happy with the cure and the moisture level on it actually.

Tamara Lilien (35:27):
Me too. And just to the touch, even though I've been touching the outside of this, I can already feel my fingers are getting some trichomes wiped off on them which is also a good sign.

Sean Kady (35:38):
Should we throw something under that big one? So all-

Tamara Lilien (35:40):
Let's do it.

Sean Kady (35:41):
... all our viewers can take a look.

Tamara Lilien (35:43):
Absolutely.

Sean Kady (35:44):
Grab one of those nice buds.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (35:47):
Yeah. And just to confirm, the cross is Girl Scout cookies and white S1.

Sean Kady (35:51):
Thank you, Johnny.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (35:51):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (35:52):
Thanks, buddy.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (35:52):
No worries.

Sean Kady (35:54):
So tell us a little bit of what you do with Purple Hills.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (35:56):
I've been with Purple Hills since 2019. So just really helping build the brand. And we launched it in 2021.

Sean Kady (36:04):
You're a sales guy? Is that-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:04):
I am, yeah.

Sean Kady (36:05):
Because I feel I can tell. It's all sales guy to sales guy.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:09):
We're such a small team that I actually wore few hats. So sometimes, I'm visiting store, sometimes I'm helping in the facility, whatever needs to be done, we just get it done.

Sean Kady (36:19):
Bootstrap. That's it.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:21):
Keeping a real lean team. Yeah.

(36:24):
So community's been great because we've actually been able to just get a lot more variety of products out there working with these great independent growers and-

Sean Kady (36:33):
Yeah. I was curious about that because I love the Purple Hills brand. What was the segue to community? What's the difference between Purple Hills and community? I'm just curious.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:41):
Well, Purple Hills has always been a community of independent growers-

Sean Kady (36:46):
Got it.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:46):
... in Creemore.

Sean Kady (36:47):
Okay.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:48):
So this has taken that and just taking-

Sean Kady (36:51):
Take it outside-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:51):
... outside.

Sean Kady (36:51):
... of Creemore.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:51):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (36:51):
Okay. I'm following now. I get it.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (36:54):
Because everything that we're producing in Creemore is going towards our concentrates for most part.

Sean Kady (36:59):
We love the Creemore Valley carts. That's our favourite. It's one of our favourites.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:02):
I thought we just got... I'll mention on that one for-

Sean Kady (37:02):
Oh, yeah. You heard that? Yeah, yeah.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:03):
Yeah, I did.

Sean Kady (37:08):
Honestly, I don't even really like carts. I really like that cart. So yeah. Good work on that, guys.

Tamara Lilien (37:12):
I'm curious, what do you think the benefit of is... What do you think is the benefit of having a rotating skew?

Sean Kady (37:18):
Great question, Tamara.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:20):
I think just always having a variety because I know for myself, I don't like to smoke the same thing over and over, I get a bit of a tolerance. So I think if you can always deliver a good craft quality at a good value, it just keeps things exciting to always what's the next thing coming.

(37:38):
And I think that's the unique part about communities. It's always going to have a great skew coming in behind what currently people are smoking and enjoying.

Sean Kady (37:47):
We follow the trends, right?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:49):
Yes, exactly.

Tamara Lilien (37:49):
So it's a beautiful marriage of consistency and quality.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:53):
Exactly.

(37:53):
And I think for-

Tamara Lilien (37:55):
And variability.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (37:57):
And supporting small growers, right? So making sure that they're getting a good honest buck for their hard work and keep them sustaining-

Sean Kady (38:04):
Yeah. Can you shout out-

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (38:05):
... what they're doing.

Sean Kady (38:06):
... these growers? Tell us a little bit more about them. I know they're from Quebec, but what's their story?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (38:10):
Yeah. You know what? I'm not sure if I want to say the name.

Sean Kady (38:16):
Ooh, okay. All right. No worries.

Tamara Lilien (38:19):
It's secret. Keep it on [inaudible 00:38:20].

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (38:20):
We have to keep something behind the screen, right?

Sean Kady (38:22):
No problem.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (38:23):
But small craft quality. This is one of the best flowers that we've had in a bag so far and we're really excited to see what people think about it.

Sean Kady (38:36):
What are you seeing over there, Tamara?

Tamara Lilien (38:38):
Well, I can tell you that we've got some very dense trichome cover over here. You can see there's some nice bulbous heads in this top portion. I've struggled to really get a very, very clear image because there's-

Sean Kady (38:54):
It's new equipment-

Tamara Lilien (38:55):
... this.

Sean Kady (38:55):
Bear with us, everybody.

Tamara Lilien (38:56):
Yeah. Well, but you can still see on the whole that it's very, very sparkly and hey, some frosted fruitcake right there. It is frosty.

Sean Kady (39:06):
It is frosty.

Tamara Lilien (39:07):
Sticky to the touch, confirmed under the microscope.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (39:10):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (39:10):
There you go.

Tamara Lilien (39:11):
And if we look at the actual heads, if we check on the colour-

Sean Kady (39:14):
You're not seeing any contamination or anything weird like that or...

Tamara Lilien (39:17):
Nope.

Sean Kady (39:17):
No.

Tamara Lilien (39:18):
Nothing like that. And the colour of the heads indicates that it was harvested at the exact correct time.

Sean Kady (39:24):
Oh, wow.

Tamara Lilien (39:25):
So we've got a nice milky translucents in the head. So if they were clear or amber, it would tell us it was an earlier or a later harvest. But this was harvested at the exact right time. So kudos to your secret grower in Quebec.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (39:42):
Excellent.

Sean Kady (39:43):
I love it. Secrets are meant to be capped sometimes. We'll find out eventually though. I'm not going to take that.

(39:49):
We'll wrap it up there for a second. We're going to roll some of this up and-

Tamara Lilien (39:52):
Let's do it.

Sean Kady (39:52):
... take it for a spin. We got the appearance down, we got the aroma onto the effects.

(39:59):
Thanks for being here, Johnny.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:00):
Oh, thanks man.

Sean Kady (40:01):
Where can they find Purple Hills? Where's your Instagram?

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:04):
Yeah. Purple.ca is where you can find out anything about us and also Care of Community on Instagram is-

Sean Kady (40:11):
Care of Community.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:12):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (40:13):
Awesome. We'll be right back with Tamara Lilien and Johnny Bongos.

(40:21):
And we're back, here with our friends from Purple Hills, Tamara Lilien.

Tamara Lilien (40:26):
Welcome, welcome.

Sean Kady (40:27):
Welcome, welcome.

(40:29):
I think still we're going to try and roll some of this up, but John, you got to go, I guess.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:33):
Yeah, I got to head back to the farm. So sorry I missed Charlie, but make sure you-

Sean Kady (40:38):
You literally just missed him.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:39):
I know.

Sean Kady (40:39):
It was funny. It was like... Anyways, ciao Charlie. He's headed to Italy for two weeks. We got Tamara for another episode.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:46):
Well, please tell him to come on up to the farm for... Bring his wife, come stay at the Airbnb-

Sean Kady (40:50):
Okay.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (40:51):
... that we've got at the micro there. And Peter was really sorry that he couldn't be down here today himself, but he really wants you guys to come up and visit us at the farm.

Sean Kady (41:00):
Oh, man, that would be really cool. I'm sure... I don't see how Charlie can say no to that.

(41:04):
Wait a second. Well, how come I'm not invited?

Tamara Lilien (41:06):
Yeah, no, not you. Not you, Sean. Just Charlie.

Sean Kady (41:10):
Oh. I guess someone's got to watch this shop.

Tamara Lilien (41:13):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (41:13):
Anyways, all right, well, thanks for stopping by, Johnny.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (41:15):
Awesome.

Sean Kady (41:15):
It was great to meet you, man.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (41:16):
It was great to be here.

Sean Kady (41:17):
Yeah.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (41:18):
Tamara.

Tamara Lilien (41:18):
Always a treat to see you again.

John Peterkin AKA Johnny Bongos (41:18):
Always great to see you. All right, take care.

Sean Kady (41:21):
We'll see you soon.

Tamara Lilien (41:21):
Looking forward to smoking some of that flower.

Sean Kady (41:23):
Yeah, we'll be right back with our final review of the Purple Hills community rotational strain.

Tamara Lilien (41:28):
Let's do it.

Sean Kady (41:42):
Back of the shop guys. 821 Queen Street West. Here with my good friend and co-host, Tamara Lilien.

Tamara Lilien (41:50):
Hey, hey. Happy to be here.

Sean Kady (41:52):
We just took a shot at the Purple Hills rotational seven gramme skew. I think right now it is a frosted-

Tamara Lilien (42:00):
Cookies.

Sean Kady (42:00):
Frosted cookies. Thank you for the save there. That was... It was all right. Yeah. Yeah. It was decent. And feeling pretty elevated.

Tamara Lilien (42:08):
Definitely.

Sean Kady (42:08):
Definitely strong.

Tamara Lilien (42:09):
Yeah. Definitely-

Sean Kady (42:09):
Doesn't lack strength.

Tamara Lilien (42:10):
... feeling intoxicated. That's right, for sure.

Sean Kady (42:13):
Nice to smoke with you, Tamara, and unwind for the last segment.

(42:18):
I guess that brings me to... I wanted to ask you, what are you smoking?

Tamara Lilien (42:23):
Actually, I love the fruitier varietals. So anything that is sweeter, fruitier. I also like florals, those types of things. Those are what really get me excited. I'm going to say like exotics.

Sean Kady (42:38):
Exotics? That's what's-

Tamara Lilien (42:39):
Exotic Quadz to be specific.

Sean Kady (42:42):
Definitely.

Tamara Lilien (42:43):
Those are my jam. So indica, sativa, I don't ascribe to any of that kind of stuff.

Sean Kady (42:51):
What's in your stash right now I guess is what I-

Tamara Lilien (42:52):
That's the way the plant grows, not how makes it feel but-

Sean Kady (42:55):
... was going with it. I was curious, what's in a level 2 sommelier stash currently?

Tamara Lilien (42:58):
Well, my choice flower right now is frosted fruit cake.

Sean Kady (43:04):
Okay.

Tamara Lilien (43:05):
That is what I am really, really enjoying.

Sean Kady (43:08):
Wow.

Tamara Lilien (43:08):
It's little gassy. It's fruity. It's extremely potent.

Sean Kady (43:13):
Are we talking the headwater cut? Is that-

Tamara Lilien (43:15):
Well, I wasn't going to say it, but if you're going to say it, then yeah. Yeah.

Sean Kady (43:19):
I'm a legacy guy. We can talk legacy products. That's all good.

Tamara Lilien (43:21):
I'm a headwater girl.

Sean Kady (43:24):
Yeah. I want to get... I'm going to find you. We don't have it right now, but there's actually a frosted fruitcake on the legal market.

Tamara Lilien (43:29):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (43:29):
It's pretty good. I don't know if it's quite... I have tried the one from Headwater, and it's great. I find that it has a little more orange to it than I like. A little more gas in my frosted fruitcake. I thought that Frost did a really good job. They're out of Burlington.

Tamara Lilien (43:41):
Oh, yeah. You know I-

Sean Kady (43:42):
Next time we hang out, I'll make sure that we get to try it together.

Tamara Lilien (43:44):
I chatted with them actually-

Sean Kady (43:46):
Oh, did you?

Tamara Lilien (43:47):
... at Lift this past weekend. Were you there?

Sean Kady (43:49):
Yes, I was actually. I remember... I think we ran into each other briefly.

Tamara Lilien (43:54):
Of course.

Sean Kady (43:55):
Didn't we?

Tamara Lilien (43:55):
Of course. We did. We did.

Sean Kady (43:57):
I think it was a quick hi-bye. It was like, "Ah." Because Lift is always so all over the place.

Tamara Lilien (44:02):
What were you up to? You were outside, right?

Sean Kady (44:03):
We were outside with the ice cream bike. I was there with our executive producer. We were just getting to meet the people, get the good word about the podcast out there, and we gave it a bunch of ice cream. So we were like, "Follow us, subscribe, check out the podcast," and was very successful. We had a lot of fun getting out there and touching base with our audience and the community.

Tamara Lilien (44:23):
You're everyone's best friend when you're handing out ice cream on a hot day.

Sean Kady (44:28):
Definitely. It was like 35. It was blistering.

Tamara Lilien (44:30):
It was brutal out there.

Sean Kady (44:31):
You were on a panel, right? If I'm not mistaken.

Tamara Lilien (44:34):
So I wish I was on a panel. I just gave two talks on my own. One collaborative, one on my own. So I guess when you get to a point in your career, they're like, "No, no, you're, you're not on a panel, you just talk on your own." I'm like, "Oh, grumble, grumble. Okay, sure. I'll just create some content and speak." No, no, I'm teasing. Of course, it's always a privilege and an honour to be asked to be-

Sean Kady (45:01):
How did it go? What were the two different topics?

Tamara Lilien (45:04):
So I was wearing my CannSell hat for the weekend. So one of the topics was the current and future state of cannabis education for budtenders. And it was a really good and interesting chat because I developed a number of questions that I asked the audience to really get the budtenders to weigh in on what they wanted to see for the future of budtender education. Some of the things we actually talked about earlier, like recertification and adding new curriculum to the course and that kind of thing. So that was really cool.

(45:40):
And the second day I talked about... I developed essentially an approach to answering medical questions for budtenders. So budtenders are in this unfortunate position where they get asked medical questions and they're legally not allowed to answer them. So unpacking that. Do you find that some of your budtenders struggle with managing those type of questions?

Sean Kady (46:03):
I think it's easy to forget, but it's definitely something that, as far as standard operating procedures, we go on very early days and let people know that that's a big no no.

(46:14):
I find the easiest way is to say, "I can't give you that advice. I am not a doctor." And I think that is clear to get that out of the way, that if anybody's listening before you say anything, and then make sure to let them know that your opinions are your own, and I guess then you're in good shape. Right?

Tamara Lilien (46:28):
I think.

Sean Kady (46:28):
Am I wrong? Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (46:30):
I think... That's 100%.

Sean Kady (46:32):
And you're drawing off of your experiences, not off of anybody else's and this is what I think will be the benefits of you consuming said product, right?

Tamara Lilien (46:42):
Absolutely. And to reinforce that point, starting by just saying, "I'm not a doctor."

Sean Kady (46:50):
Yes. That's the easiest way. Right? That's what I always say to all my staff.

Tamara Lilien (46:54):
And Imagine going into the LCBO and saying, "Oh, hey, I'm on this antibiotic. Can I drink on it?" The person at the LCBO's like, "I don't fucking know. You drink if you want to drink. I can show you where the beer is. I can show you where the wine is."

Sean Kady (47:09):
That's a you decision, man.

Tamara Lilien (47:09):
Yeah, exactly. That's a you thing, not a me thing. Yeah.

Sean Kady (47:11):
Yeah. Totally. So 1000%.

(47:13):
I'm reminded by... I had a really good time. Did you go to any cool after parties?

Tamara Lilien (47:16):
I did go to two really cool after parties. Shout out to Amina and Got Loud for putting together some really cool and interesting events.

Sean Kady (47:29):
Endgame, right? I think it was the Endgame party.

Tamara Lilien (47:30):
Endgame. Fido was there. Lot420. Oh, on the Saturday night Lot420 came through with some-

Sean Kady (47:38):
Ah, I missed that.

Tamara Lilien (47:40):
... beautiful, beautiful cultivars. There was-

Sean Kady (47:42):
Did you try the atomic apples? I really liked that one.

Tamara Lilien (47:44):
I haven't tried it yet, but I have it at home. But the orange cake-

Sean Kady (47:49):
Ooh.

Tamara Lilien (47:49):
... that they allowed us to sample was delightful. There's just no other word to describe it. It was delightful. We all were like... It was lip-smacking.

Sean Kady (48:00):
Yeah. Well, early days, that gelato cut that... I think it's actually a Z-splitter technically, but-

Tamara Lilien (48:04):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (48:05):
... it's called a Gelato 33. I don't even had that from them. But early days I was like a go-to count on it, recommend that to people and just know that they were going to get something decent in that jar. Right?

(48:16):
So shout out to Lot420 and all that they're doing.

Tamara Lilien (48:18):
For sure. And there was another brand there too, Ministry of Sativa.

Sean Kady (48:22):
Oh, okay.

Tamara Lilien (48:23):
Yeah, I had a great chat with them. There are lovely bunch of folks and-

Sean Kady (48:27):
They did a Oaxacan Haze that I was really intrigued by which is more like a land race which is cool.

Tamara Lilien (48:34):
I haven't tried it, but I do have a sample of it. Have you had a chance to try it?

Sean Kady (48:37):
No, we should try it together.

Tamara Lilien (48:39):
Maybe we should. I should bring some samples around next time and we should just see what's what.

Sean Kady (48:44):
Are you going to join me for another episode?

Tamara Lilien (48:47):
Oh, damn right, I am.

Sean Kady (48:47):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (48:47):
Awesome.

Sean Kady (48:47):
Okay, awesome.

Tamara Lilien (48:49):
I'll be here as often as you'll have me.

Sean Kady (48:51):
That's what I'm thinking. I guess Charlie's away for a whole two weeks, so I'm sure we can make that happen.

Tamara Lilien (48:56):
Let's do it.

Sean Kady (48:57):
That's fantastic.

(48:59):
Speaking of Lift, isn't that where we met? I'm like... It brings me back. I was like-

Tamara Lilien (49:03):
That's right.

Sean Kady (49:04):
Time just flies. I think must have been 2021? Is that one?

Tamara Lilien (49:08):
It was 2021. Yeah.

Sean Kady (49:11):
Yeah, I'm not crazy. Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (49:12):
Yeah. It was at the Secret Garden Party which was probably one of the coolest parties I think I've attended in the industry to date.

Sean Kady (49:19):
Yeah. I do have a lot of good memories of that. I think a lot of event coordinators in the space and in the industry have tried to replicate what they did that night and just brought together a lot of up and coming stars in the industry. And I actually met a lot of people, not just you that night, that are still friends to this day. So I think that's a testament to the kind of people that they brought together.

Tamara Lilien (49:42):
Absolutely. And I think it was the first time someone threw a party, excuse me, where they just were like, "I don't give a fuck. I'm throwing a lit ass party and that's what I'm doing. And maybe there'll be consequences. Maybe there won't be. But I'm bringing an amazing group of people together. I'm going to have amazing snacks."

Sean Kady (50:06):
Yeah. They had-

Tamara Lilien (50:06):
... shout out-

Sean Kady (50:06):
... [inaudible 00:50:07], glass there, G Pen and they had a whole-

Tamara Lilien (50:06):
Who were the snack? I think it was Dank Mart.

Sean Kady (50:07):
Dank Mart sponsored the event-

Tamara Lilien (50:09):
Yeah, shout out to Dank Mart.

Sean Kady (50:10):
... and one of the OGs in the exotic snack space. And Spencer, I think was visiting from-

Tamara Lilien (50:14):
Oh, yeah, Spencer. Such an amazing dude.

Sean Kady (50:16):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (50:17):
Fantastic dude.

Sean Kady (50:17):
Always inspiring. Always pushing a good message. Love that guy. Definitely.

Tamara Lilien (50:21):
Yeah. He's an inspiration, for sure.

Sean Kady (50:23):
Who else? We had the beverages of Collective Arts. I think that was... I hadn't tried some of their beverages yet. It was still early days when it first come out.

Tamara Lilien (50:30):
First time I'd ever been to a venue where there was just a cannabis beverage bar.

Sean Kady (50:35):
Yeah, no alcohol.

Tamara Lilien (50:35):
It was phenomenal.

Sean Kady (50:35):
None at all. Which I love.

Tamara Lilien (50:35):
That's my jam.

Sean Kady (50:39):
It was the best. It was like, "Nope, there was no alcohol out on site." Edibles were handed out, there were pre-rolls and all that. You could smoke inside. Stündenglass. I think that was the first time I ever tried a Stündenglass.

Tamara Lilien (50:48):
Oh, yeah.

Sean Kady (50:50):
I don't know if this... I'm not really a huge...

Tamara Lilien (50:51):
Bong type?

Sean Kady (50:51):
Bong.

Tamara Lilien (50:53):
I'm a glass girl myself.

Sean Kady (50:54):
There you go.

Tamara Lilien (50:54):
[inaudible 00:50:55] glass.

Sean Kady (50:55):
There you go. Okay.

Tamara Lilien (50:56):
But I think one of the most exciting parts of that party was there was a lot of consumption.

Sean Kady (51:05):
Yes.

Tamara Lilien (51:06):
There was a lot of cannabis. There were a lot of people. Nobody greened out. Nobody over ingested.

Sean Kady (51:14):
Right.

Tamara Lilien (51:15):
There were no fights-

Sean Kady (51:16):
There was no fights.

Tamara Lilien (51:16):
... at the venue.

Sean Kady (51:17):
Nothing got stolen. Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (51:19):
It was just a sick party that everyone enjoyed and are still talking about.

Sean Kady (51:25):
Yeah. Well, I'm glad that it happened because I would've never met you.

Tamara Lilien (51:29):
I know.

Sean Kady (51:30):
And there you go.

Tamara Lilien (51:33):
And then since then, now our friendship has blossomed to-

Sean Kady (51:35):
You're co-hosting a podcast which is great.

Tamara Lilien (51:35):
I know. Just like that. What a world.

Sean Kady (51:40):
I guess I wanted to say, which role do partnerships and collaborations play in the cannabis industry and how do you think you leverage them for success as a consultant?

(51:57):
Did I like...

Tamara Lilien (52:00):
For real?

Sean Kady (52:03):
That put you on the spot? We could just move on.

Tamara Lilien (52:06):
I mean-

Sean Kady (52:06):
Why don't you ask me the questions? Do it. Ask me Questions. Right?

Tamara Lilien (52:12):
I was like, "Am I being punked right now?"

Sean Kady (52:14):
Yeah, you gave me... I didn't mean a deer in the headlights you there. Sorry. I guess I like that.

Tamara Lilien (52:21):
I'm like, "Yeah, I know-"

Sean Kady (52:21):
This is great though.

Tamara Lilien (52:22):
... I know we had some prepared questions," but hell, yeah. God damn. Going to put me on the spot like that.

Sean Kady (52:27):
Oh my gosh.

Tamara Lilien (52:28):
Shit.

Sean Kady (52:29):
Well, what-

Tamara Lilien (52:30):
Look, I will say this. A rising tide raises all ships. I think collaboration is much more important than competition.

Sean Kady (52:40):
Yeah.

Tamara Lilien (52:40):
I pursue any opportunity to collaborate that is available. I think that we're stronger when we work together than when we try to compete. And I don't know what your question was, but that's just what I'm going to say about that. How about you?

Sean Kady (52:58):
That was an amazing answer. And I'm sorry we're putting you on the spot. And honestly, I don't script these things often and I don't know why. I just went straight to, "I'm going to ask this question."

Tamara Lilien (53:08):
I think your deer in headlights moment, you were just like, "I'm just going to transfer that right onto you. I don't got anything to say in this moment. Here you go. Take it away."

Sean Kady (53:20):
Hot potatoes.

Tamara Lilien (53:21):
Take it away, T.

Sean Kady (53:24):
Hot potato, T. Hot potato.

(53:24):
I learned a lot today with you. I had so much fun. We got a chance to go over... I know it's going to help my reviews in the future and I was able to pick up a few things from you as well. And I'll pass it on to my staff.

Tamara Lilien (53:38):
Awesome. And-

Sean Kady (53:39):
And hopefully, our listeners learn something as well.

Tamara Lilien (53:41):
Absolutely. And listen, quality matters. Quality is much more than THC. If you are thinking about how you define quality, use your eyes, use your nose, use your hands. It's much, much more than a number that some lab did to test one cola that represents an entire grow. It's just not that simple.

Sean Kady (54:01):
Thank you for touching on that because that is something we brought up before the high... I'll quickly just touch on that. How do you think we get over that as an industry, the high THC percentage game?

Tamara Lilien (54:11):
It's a really tough one. I've been thinking about it for a long time and I'm starting to think that it might just be something that takes time. And we have to continue to educate consumers, educate budtenders, educate ourselves. And the more we can open our eyes and our minds to how we actually define quality, we can change the discussion. And that's what I'm all about. Changing the discussion, changing the dialogue about cannabis.

Sean Kady (54:43):
Yeah. I think you said it really well right there, Tamara. I look forward to our next episode together.

Tamara Lilien (54:49):
I do as well.

Sean Kady (54:50):
And I'm sure everyone else does. We'll have some other juicy education nuggets for everybody. Please follow CannaLily Consulting on... Remind us again. Sorry. Where they can find you?

Tamara Lilien (55:02):
It's cannalily.consulting on Instagram.

Sean Kady (55:02):
There we go.

Tamara Lilien (55:06):
Or you can check out my website. Just cannalily.ca.

Sean Kady (55:10):
Amazing. And make sure to follow us at HigherOrbit.

(55:14):
Reminder, I got to open this shop now. We're here and Charlie's gone. Arriverderci, Carlos.