Sheesh...What a soda!

The Founder of Sheesh Hash Sodas joins the brothers at the back of the shop as they talk solventless edibles and the future of cannabis infused beverages.

The hosts of HigherOrbit extend a warm welcome to their first guest, Matt Cherkas, founder of Sheesh Hash Sodas @sheeshsodas and the creator of the highly acclaimed Black Cherry Hash Cola. Matt's unwavering commitment to authenticity and using only the finest ingredients aligns perfectly with the hosts' mission to showcase exceptional guests.

Transcript

Sean Kady (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sean Cady.

Charlie Kady (00:02):
I'm Charlie Cady.

Sean Kady (00:03):
And this is HigherOrbit.

Charlie Kady (00:21):
Welcome to today's episode, guys.

Sean Kady (00:23):
Yeah, welcome back everybody. We're really excited to have our first guest on the podcast today. He's a founder of the first solventless Hash Rosin soda that I know of, anyways, and a really good guy. A good friend of ours and of the podcast. Welcome, Matt Cherkas.

Matt Cherkas (00:42):
Hey, thanks for having me.

Sean Kady (00:43):
Yeah.

Matt Cherkas (00:44):
That was a heavy intro tune, guys. I like that a lot. You had my head knocking.

Charlie Kady (00:52):
A little bass going.

Sean Kady (00:53):
Right? Set the vibe.

Matt Cherkas (00:53):
Thanks so much for having me. Super excited to be here. When your favourite store comes calling and asks you to get on the podcast, you get there. You know what I mean?

Sean Kady (01:03):
Yeah, man.

Matt Cherkas (01:03):
So I'm really excited to be here, guys. So thanks for having me.

Sean Kady (01:07):
That's amazing.

Charlie Kady (01:07):
Thanks so much, man. Yeah. First interview right from the shop.

Sean Kady (01:13):
Back at 821 Queen Street West. Don't forget, guys, follow us at higherorbit.ca. That is where we're at. At higher orbit on Instagram, and also follow the shop at CosmicCharlie's.Shop.

Charlie Kady (01:27):
And Sheesh Soda.

Sean Kady (01:27):
And Sheesh Soda. At sheesh soda?

Matt Cherkas (01:29):
At Sheesh Sodas. Yeah,

Sean Kady (01:30):
At Sheesh sodas, plural. There we go.

Matt Cherkas (01:33):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (01:35):
I guess, Matt, let's start with where were you before cannabis, and what drew you into it, man, in this crazy world that we're in?

Matt Cherkas (01:43):
Yeah, I love that question because anyone you ask, everybody has a fairly windy road to how they got in the industry. Some people, I guess more of a straight arrow than others, but for myself, my history is in the restaurant industry.

Charlie Kady (02:00):
Oh, Great.

Sean Kady (02:00):
Recently?

Matt Cherkas (02:01):
Yeah, I came to Toronto to actually open a bar with some pals and then accidentally opened a couple restaurants here. Did that for a few years. The first one was a place called Yours Truly which actually wasn't far from here. It was just at Ossington and Dundas.

Sean Kady (02:16):
Very cool.

Matt Cherkas (02:17):
And then we opened a little snack shop called AOK Foods right at Queen and Shaw. So just down the street, yeah.

Sean Kady (02:22):
Damn, man.

Matt Cherkas (02:24):
Yeah, so did that for a few years and then exited that industry to jump into an opportunity with a company that my cousin was starting. He's like a longtime product marketer and developer for Pepsi. His father, my uncle was the president of Pepsi Canada at one point and also the president of Pepsi, Asia. So deep, deep [inaudible 00:02:50]

Sean Kady (02:49):
You had the recipes.

Matt Cherkas (02:50):
Yeah, exactly. So it was really exciting for me 'cause I got a crash course in beverage from some beverage wizards for sure. But I was handling... Since I had the network of my peers with restaurants, cafes, bars, and that kind of stuff, we launched a craft soda initially called Just, and so I handled the food service side of our sales, and then John was the big box stuff. So I had ultimately about 50 accounts in Toronto of high-end bars, cafes, et cetera, that we were selling the soda. So I was servicing those just out of the back of my Volvo.

Sean Kady (03:27):
No Way.

Charlie Kady (03:28):
Nice.

Matt Cherkas (03:28):
Yeah, and then at the same time, we were in every grocery store in Canada of the big chains. So it was great because I learned how to build a distribution network organically from the ground up on the street level with what I was doing but also got to learn about distributing through a distribution company to bigger retailers. And ultimately that's kind of the way that we work with the OCS. So it was a really, really great set of experience just on interacting with category managers at individual stores, what they want out of a popup, that kind of stuff. And then also how you deal with big distributors like we deal with the OCS. So yeah, really great knowledge there. And then around 2017, John's a big cannabis fan, as am I. So we started to look at how we could exist in the cannabis, beverage space.

Sean Kady (04:21):
That's amazing.

Matt Cherkas (04:23):
Yeah, we were looking all the way from buying our own bottling facility. This is before the rags came out that said you couldn't have a shared... You can't make cannabis drinks and non-cannabis drinks in the same place.

Sean Kady (04:34):
Of course, the sky would fall, right?

Matt Cherkas (04:36):
Yeah, That would literally lead to the downfall of our society. The children, I think would-

Sean Kady (04:43):
When did that change?

Matt Cherkas (04:45):
Geez, I think 2018, they clarified that rag. And so then us wanting to produce our non-cannabis soda and cannabis soda in the same place. That opportunity-

Sean Kady (04:55):
That's great, man. I had no idea you were in hospitality. I don't know if you know this, but once upon a time... Me and Charlie both have a hospitality background-

Matt Cherkas (05:02):
How wicked. Here in Toronto?

Sean Kady (05:03):
Yeah, I actually went to George Brown.

Matt Cherkas (05:04):
Oh, cool.

Sean Kady (05:05):
Culinary management. I Actually have-

Charlie Kady (05:06):
I have to work tonight.

Sean Kady (05:10):
There you go. Charlie's still in the industry, isn't he?

Matt Cherkas (05:12):
Yeah, so we start looking at the space. I had a bit more time to do the networking in the nascent cannabis industry myself. So I started to get out there, talk to companies from a supply standpoint, also a manufacturing standpoint, and just at that time fell in-

Sean Kady (05:35):
All right, we got a time-out. Apparently the time-out for one second. And we're back with Matt Cherkas and sheesh sodas after some technical difficulties.

(05:51):
Here we go. Welcome Back, Matt.

Matt Cherkas (05:53):
Thank you, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, so we start looking at manufacturing facilities, and I'm starting to get to know people in the industry. And actually during that time, I ran into these guys who run a great, or ran a great legacy brand called EP Infusions. I saw their stuff at the Green Market in Kensington.

Sean Kady (06:13):
Cool.

Matt Cherkas (06:13):
Yeah, and they had a really beautiful little drink, super tasty. So I got pretty excited by that, and then they have these amazing chocolate products. And so reached out to them, started talking about maybe partnering with them, and just got a bunch of their chocolate in my house. And the reason that's relevant is because I... What really solidified my love for cannabis was during this point, I suffer from something called cluster headaches. I have that as a result of just having a bunch of concussions when I was a kid and not knowing how to take care of them basically.

(06:49):
So it's like migraines on steroids basically. And the crazy thing about those headaches is the cluster is the period of time that you are prone to having them, and you have them a couple times a day. And so for me, that would be three weeks. So I'd basically have to just shut down my life for three weeks. I Tried all different kinds of treatments, all different kinds of medicine, and the shitty thing about clusters is the cluster starts and stops on its own. So I'd go to a chiropractor one time and be doing that till the end of the cluster, and I'd think that was a solution. So it's hard to figure out that that's even going on. So anyways, long story short, I tried a bunch of medicine, nothing ever touched the pain. And I'm in a particularly bad cluster during this period then I'm talking about where I'm EDP, and I have some of their super high CBD chocolates just kicking around my house. And I'm like, Well, I had tried cannabis for it before but just smoking a joint. So I got a bunch of CBD down and for the first time something mitigated the pain. It literally in that instant changed my life.

Sean Kady (07:48):
Wow, Isn't that amazing?

Matt Cherkas (07:49):
Yeah, so then it was like, "Okay, I'm all in."

Sean Kady (07:53):
Saw the power of the plant and you were committed.

Matt Cherkas (07:56):
Yeah, 'cause nothing had helped before. You know It doesn't cure it, but it definitely helps me manage it to a point where I don't have to close up shop for a couple weeks.

Sean Kady (08:06):
Do you only consume by edible forms or do you also-

Matt Cherkas (08:10):
No, I smoke as well.

Sean Kady (08:10):
You smoke as well?

Matt Cherkas (08:11):
Yeah, and that's just out of curiosity. I love to go down rabbit holes of craft and what's behind anything. How does anything sort of come to market? How do you make it, what are the decisions you make?

Charlie Kady (08:24):
The products.

Matt Cherkas (08:24):
Exactly, yeah.

Charlie Kady (08:25):
Seeing that come-

Matt Cherkas (08:27):
I just needed in into that side of cannabis to sort of latch onto and then start to learn all about it. I could tell from afar, obviously that's going on in the background. I just hadn't had access to it, so I start talking with a publicly traded cannabis... Well, they eventually were public. This company called Pasha Brands from BC just from a supply standpoint. And started to kick some ideas at them of how a company like theirs could be successful and sort of stand out in the beverage space when cannabis 2.0 happens. And they liked the ideas so much that they brought me on to create a beverage programme for them, so I left the previous company and on their dime, got to fly all over North America and meet everybody making cannabis drinks in the states at the time, all the emulsion suppliers, manufacturers.

Charlie Kady (09:25):
Was this the Kombucha?

Sean Kady (09:25):
Yeah, is this one you met Charlie?

Matt Cherkas (09:26):
Ultimately, that's down the road. So yeah, I identify a co-packer for us here, like a manufacturing partner here in Canada, we make a bunch of cool partnerships with my friends who had functional beverage brands like Loop Juice, and then we signed an LOI with Station Cold Brew. Going to do all these crazy functional beverages and fast-forward a year of all this development and networking and stuff. And unfortunately Pasha, the bottom, fell out of the public cannabis market at the time. It took them way longer than they wanted to get their RTO done. They just weren't capitalised to do all the other stuff and drinks was one of them. So luckily, they were nice enough to let me take myself, everything I'd been working on over to a licenced manufacturer called Level Up Infusions. That's where we developed the Kombuchas.

Charlie Kady (10:19):
Okay.

Matt Cherkas (10:20):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (10:20):
What makes the cannabis cat... I mean the beverage category so difficult to break into 'cause I've heard this brought up a lot before that the margins are not there? Is it the volume? In your opinion-

Matt Cherkas (10:34):
Well, I mean there's a lot to unpack there and honestly, I'm excited to be on the podcast 'cause I've got some hot takes about the categories.

Charlie Kady (10:41):
Yeah, give us the hot takes.

Sean Kady (10:42):
Hit us with it.

Matt Cherkas (10:43):
And some assumptions that we leaned heavily on in the runup like we made a lot of decisions about sheesh like betting on some of our divergent ideas about how cannabis is actually sold in Canada.

Sean Kady (10:57):
And consumed-

Matt Cherkas (10:58):
Yeah, so I'm excited to bounce that off. You guys were doing that every day and seeing if you're seeing this with your customers. And now you've even got sheesh in store. Right?

Sean Kady (11:06):
Woo. I do have sheesh in store, Matt. I actually have one conveniently right here, and I'm going to segway into that and put that right in the-

Matt Cherkas (11:14):
Yeah, fantastic.

Sean Kady (11:16):
... shots. Why not?

Matt Cherkas (11:17):
So okay, I guess we're getting right into hot takes.

Charlie Kady (11:20):
Yeah, I like it.

Matt Cherkas (11:22):
So yeah, correct me if you think I'm wrong about any of this as we're moving through it, but for me, the category... Everyone talks about how small it is, all the challenges. And those definitely exist, but to me, those presented-

Charlie Kady (11:38):
Opportunity.

Matt Cherkas (11:39):
... Those are opportunities. Yes, exactly. I think the cannabis beverage category was one of the only categories left that was ripe for the type of disruption that thankfully it looks like we've achieved. And to me that starts from its inception. When you look back at the category, it's been primarily curated by ex alcohol executives, right?

Charlie Kady (12:03):
Yes.

Matt Cherkas (12:04):
And they're, for the most part, their priorities are replacing beer, replacing that consumption occasion and bringing those customers who they're seeing leave alcohol-

Sean Kady (12:16):
Yeah, less people are [inaudible 00:12:17].

Matt Cherkas (12:17):
... to drinks, right?

Sean Kady (12:18):
Yeah.

Matt Cherkas (12:20):
Drinks are the vehicle for that. I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen in person.

Sean Kady (12:25):
Less hangover.

Matt Cherkas (12:26):
Oh yeah, it's definitely perfect for bringing the novice consumer over, but the priorities that those people had, I think are slightly out of whack with who the actual demographic of people are that are spending the lion share of time in dispensary, actually buying cannabis products in a meaningful amount. So examples of that are, they were obsessed with onset. You guys have probably heard about nano emulsion. How quickly does the effect take place.

Charlie Kady (12:57):
I want to ask you about that later. That's For sure. About the hash soda.

Matt Cherkas (12:59):
Yeah, so the way you achieve that is just whatever proprietary process you're using to break the cannabis oil down into little droplets, you do more of that. This is an oversimplification, but you do more of that to make them smaller. The smaller they are, the easier they pass through different barriers in your body.

Sean Kady (13:21):
Liver processes them quicker and stuff.

Matt Cherkas (13:23):
But some of them even skip your liver which is an interesting topic if you get them small enough, but usually, I haven't seen an emulsion tech where the more you do that to achieve faster onset. So you talk about a measure of the size of the droplet of the oil. When you get down to the really low nano stuff, there's flavour implications like-

Charlie Kady (13:46):
Oh, I believe it too. Yeah. I feel like some of the rapid drinks feel a little less strong, so they must skip my liver at some point.

Matt Cherkas (13:54):
Yeah, so it's like we need faster onset. So what making the droplet smaller does is THC distillate, sonicated distillate. It's just bitter on its own already, and so when you do more of that process, it imparts more bitter flavour.

Sean Kady (14:15):
It's going to hit your palate. More of those molecules are hitting your tongue all at the same time, right?

Matt Cherkas (14:17):
Yes, there's more surface area. So they literally chose to make their drinks taste worse, to have it five minute better onset. So yeah, there's so many examples all the way along of having the wrong priority. So it's like, "Let's make a worse tasting drink because onset is all that matters." Or, "I'm putting my cannabis in a seltzer because zero sugar is where everything else is trending." But that means my emulsion has to be clear and you make it clear by making the droplet smaller and you make it more bitter.

Sean Kady (14:52):
Got it.

Charlie Kady (14:54):
No wonder so many drinks taste-

Sean Kady (14:56):
Taste bad. It makes a lot more sense now, Matt [inaudible 00:14:59]

Matt Cherkas (14:59):
Yeah, but that was a conscious choice. And so for me, every time when we formulated drinks at Level Up, it was like I would challenge any consumer to identify a 10-minute onset versus literally a 15. But they'll definitely tell you if their drink tastes shit or not.

Sean Kady (15:17):
Yeah, exactly. It's so important.

Matt Cherkas (15:20):
Yeah.

Charlie Kady (15:21):
Are there different challenges in the process when we're talking about emulsifying TC distillate versus the solventless hash rosin that you chose to use?

Matt Cherkas (15:29):
Well, luckily we work with, in my humble opinion, the best emulsion tech supplier in the world. They're called Vertosa. They're from California. Fantastic group of people down there. Super passionate about cannabis generally but also advancing the category. And they nailed it on the first try with our Live Rosin input, and it was the first time they'd even attempted to.

Sean Kady (15:58):
Wow.

Charlie Kady (15:58):
No way.

Matt Cherkas (15:58):
Yeah, it kind of went like that for us.

Sean Kady (16:00):
Who washed it for you? I've never asked you that.

Matt Cherkas (16:02):
Final Bell.

Sean Kady (16:03):
Final Bell did wash it for you, okay.

Charlie Kady (16:04):
Cool.

Matt Cherkas (16:05):
So that is my favourite part about this is... And apologies to my friends who fit this description, I got a lot of pals who are ex and current alcohol execs. Sheesh is what happens when weed people make a drink not drink people trying to make weed.

Sean Kady (16:23):
Yes, I love it.

Charlie Kady (16:24):
I like it, yeah.

Matt Cherkas (16:26):
That's literally what happened. There's love for cannabis and for whatever every other part of making like the cherry juice that's in there, we get it from a place called Cherry Lane in Niagara. They love cherries. You know what I mean? Seven farms down grew the cannabis. They love cannabis, they grew it well, they've had a tonne of experience, so we've got the best weed we can. Then you give it to Final Bell who obviously know what they're doing. There's love all the way through this thing and people excited for this product to exist. And I'm just so happy that the result is-

Charlie Kady (16:57):
I Can smell the aroma.

Sean Kady (16:58):
It tastes really good. I've never actually poured it in a cup before and actually I can smell the... I enjoy it. It's ever so slight, but it just goes so well with the Niagra cherry juice and natural sugar.

Matt Cherkas (17:10):
And so I guess back to the category, I feel like what has happened up till now, and I'm not trivialising any of this, making distillate based anything taste good, is not easy. What's happened up till now is everyone is trying to out drink each other with different drink value propositions. And again, none of these are easy to achieve but that could be something like zero sugar, or this tastes just like a beer. But in every case, even with these beautiful kombuchas we made, at Level Up, we did these amazing juice shots with Loop that were all upcycled produce, just like-

Charlie Kady (17:53):
Oh yeah, we had those.

Sean Kady (17:54):
We had those, yeah, they're delicious.

Matt Cherkas (17:56):
Beautiful products but it's like the drink part is the complicated differentiator. And then they just shoehorn THC in there in distillate form or maybe a little bit of CBD as well every time. So that is exciting to little tiny subsections of customers in the category. Each one. Someone who wants a beer or someone who wants low sugar but there's no cannabis part of it to get excited about. So for us, we designed it from the ground up to be your bud-tender's favourite drink 'cause we have transparency on this is who grew the weed. I'm going to go up to the farm, I'm going to introduce you to them, I'm going to show you us planting cannabis, we're going to go to see it washed, and there's transparency all the way through. So for me, that's what has been lacking in the category and what's left the door open for us to no marketing budget, no data plans, nothing like that. Just get in there and resonate with cannabis lovers. And to me, that's also an important distinction. I think the demographic or demographics that these beverage companies have been gunning for previous to us, they're trying to run before they can walk. So it's like-

Charlie Kady (19:13):
They think they know what they're doing. They think-

Matt Cherkas (19:15):
Yeah, but the typical way you look at this kind of stuff is like, "Okay, what do women of this age group like? What kind of products do they consume? How are we going to service them? What are people of this age group like?" And for me, it's like, "Back way up." I think you're doing it wrong if your demographic isn't cannabis lovers.

Charlie Kady (19:37):
Right, they don't have the data on that. So it's-

Sean Kady (19:40):
Trying to capture too much of the demographic not knowing who the actual cannabis consumer is. Is that what you're saying?

Matt Cherkas (19:46):
Yeah, I'm saying that they have a fundamental misconception of who's actually in dispensaries buying products in meaningful amounts. And I like to subdivide cannabis lovers as my demographic. And so it's like how... And delight them in as many groups of them as I can. So-

Charlie Kady (20:05):
You're not going to get them all, yeah.

Matt Cherkas (20:06):
Of course, so what are their priorities? And it's across age, it's across gender. It's like do they like convenience, do they like taste, do they like smell, do they like affect, how can we best serve as many parts of that Venn diagram but of cannabis lovers 'cause the other demographic is just not there. And there's not a good way to even reach people outside of the store. Guess who's in the demographic I'm talking about? You guys, every bud-tender in Canada. you know what I mean?

Charlie Kady (20:37):
Yep.

Matt Cherkas (20:38):
Everyone who loved cannabis before legalisation and will continue to love it after. It's my contention that that's most of who you're seeing in the store.

Charlie Kady (20:46):
But organically that'll help you sell it, right?

Matt Cherkas (20:49):
Yeah. Well-

Charlie Kady (20:49):
The products that are good, at the end of the day, I value-

Sean Kady (20:49):
Inherintly easier.

Charlie Kady (20:55):
And then I think that... Well, yeah, that's been important in this industry so far.

Matt Cherkas (20:58):
Yeah, so-

Charlie Kady (20:58):
That's why they're throwing a lot of money at budtenders now, right?

Matt Cherkas (21:01):
Absolutely. So to me, it's like everyone is fighting to influence the bud-tender and it's, "Here's a Frisbee. Here's a tshirt."

Charlie Kady (21:09):
The marketing, right?

Matt Cherkas (21:09):
Yeah.

Charlie Kady (21:10):
Like giving them lots of free weed, Yeah.

Matt Cherkas (21:12):
Well no, that's what you should be doing.

Charlie Kady (21:14):
That's what I mean to by throwing money out. [inaudible 00:21:18]

Matt Cherkas (21:17):
But I thought, let's just make a product that they're excited by fundamentally. And luckily, I think there hasn't really been anything yet that lets bud-tenders, people who have cannabis grab onto the cannabis part of the product and select the way they do in every other category, in edibles, in pre-rolls, in whatever.

Charlie Kady (21:40):
Well, I'm interested to hear your opinion on that 'cause there's obvious implications of alcohol beverage on the development of the category, but what do you think that'll look like as it develops, let's say down the road? How much bigger can we get with it? What reach does it have? You were saying you think that it's... Obviously your drink is specific, but do you think we could target a broader market with the more advancement of those drinks?

Matt Cherkas (22:09):
Oh yeah, absolutely. And what I think is going to-

Sean Kady (22:13):
Like the solventless category, you mean Charlie? You want to see that kind of grow. And I think that's what you meant.

Matt Cherkas (22:20):
Yeah, for sure. It's an important thing to talk about because I'm so happy to see this... Obviously we're happy to see the success of the drink, but just to see the sort of wild reception of this, to me, and this is not from a point of ego, it's more proves a point of where the category should head, how product development should head because like I said, no data deals, no marketing budget, and we're already in the top 10 drinks in Ontario in a month and a half. So surprise, surprise, you give people who love cannabis, good cannabis, they're going to respond to it. So I just want to see everybody push in that direction. It doesn't have to be super high quality. And I should point that out too. It's not like a gate-keeping thing. It doesn't have to be super premium. But I think you should always be trying to delight the cannabis user. And to me, if you're not using, you're wasting the full potential of the plant if you're not doing your best to capture as much of the things that offers you as possible. And that's taste, smell, effect. Also the opportunity to interact with the people who grew it. And then now that we figured out that this works, think about the possibilities of flavour pairing of dialling in an exact strain specific effect.

Sean Kady (23:43):
I love that actually.

Matt Cherkas (23:44):
It just cascades, and the rosin is so tasty that you can just make these incredibly complex drinks that are tastier and more complex 'cause of the cannabis. And so the potential of that is just endless, I feel.

Sean Kady (24:00):
Is there any food in particular? So I had to stop you there 'cause I'm a food guy too, and you said pairing, and is there any food in particular you think really pairs well with your hash soda?

Matt Cherkas (24:10):
Oh man, I'm typically eating a lot of candy.

Sean Kady (24:15):
Okay.

Charlie Kady (24:16):
Candy, okay.

Sean Kady (24:16):
I mean it is a treat. A sheesh, I guess you want something sweet. You want... I guess it would go great with a burger man. Something salty. Something salty I would say.

Matt Cherkas (24:25):
Absolutely. Yeah, some barbecue.

Sean Kady (24:27):
Some kind of barbecue would be great. You get in the summertime.

Matt Cherkas (24:29):
Yep. Yeah, just-

Sean Kady (24:32):
I'm sorry to hit you with that question. [inaudible 00:24:35]

Matt Cherkas (24:32):
No, that's all good.

Sean Kady (24:41):
Reminder, guys, you can follow us at Higher orbit. We're also at cosmiccharlies.shop. Matt Cherkas on the podcast at Sheesh Sodas. That's at Sheesh Sodas

Charlie Kady (25:07):
And we are back at the shop. Matt, Sean talking beveys.

Sean Kady (25:13):
Talking hash-

Charlie Kady (25:14):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (25:14):
... soda, colas, deliciousness.

Matt Cherkas (25:18):
I wanted to touch on what we were talking about a little bit before just before we move off it about growing the category. Something that's been so cool to see is a lot of our customers posting their reviews and stuff on Instagram, showing their haul from the shop. And something that I'm seeing that I haven't seen really before with any other drink, and we're hearing this from retailers like you guys is the basket when they get home and they take the picture of it, it's almost always a full spec gummy, a hash infused pre-roll, even some hash products and our drink. And so we're hearing for the first time that type of consumer is adopting a drink and really getting into it. So that's really important because I think up till now, the sales date is showing that the category, at least in Ontario is not really growing as a whole. There's just more products sniping off their new slices of it. It's growing a little bit, but it's not like really-

Charlie Kady (26:23):
It's slow.

Matt Cherkas (26:24):
Yeah, exactly so-

Sean Kady (26:27):
I think this is like the education piece is starting to really pay off for... We feel like as retailers anyways that like that piece, it's been so frustrating because other people don't want to hear it, but more and more, like you said, people are asking for solving this, they're asking for strain specific edibles, you know what I mean?

Charlie Kady (26:46):
It's all gonna take time.

Sean Kady (26:46):
And I've never seen that before. It's going to take time, but it's definitely something we've been seeing, Matt, so I think it's part of the success you've had. Definitely, man, it's just perfect timing for that too as well. And being one of those first products and making first to market and making that impression, I think is going to pay dividends for you, man.

Matt Cherkas (27:06):
Yeah, we've had all kinds of good timing in the last... Was it the last six months when we started to be allowed to actually give out infuse samples. So we were able to pre-sell with actual infused product which is... We're probably one of the first drinks that-

Charlie Kady (27:22):
Pre-sales?

Matt Cherkas (27:23):
Yeah, I walked into your shop before the ocs before you could order it and put one of these on your desk, right?

Sean Kady (27:29):
Right.

Matt Cherkas (27:30):
Nothing sells drugs better than free drugs.

Sean Kady (27:32):
Fuck yes.

Matt Cherkas (27:33):
Yeah, perfect timing. It just was rocket fuel for the launch here with the OCS.

Sean Kady (27:38):
Was working with the OCS like I don't know, compared to say other government monopolies in this country, I guess.

Matt Cherkas (27:47):
I think we're lucky to have a great category manager in beverage. Danielle does a great job. Her background, she was a buyer for a sort of high end wellness e-commerce site, bought a lot of my pals functional drinks and really understands. It was nice to get on the call with her initially when we were pitching the Kombucha or whatever and not have to explain what a Kombucha is. You know what I mean? So she understands that and sees the potential for the category and is really well versed in the more functional drinks and stuff. And I think that's where the category is-

Sean Kady (28:24):
Also headed?

Matt Cherkas (28:24):
Yeah. Minors and dialling in that functionality.

Sean Kady (28:27):
CBD?

Matt Cherkas (28:28):
Stuff like that. Yeah, for sure.

Charlie Kady (28:32):
There's a big gap I think in CBD drinks, in my opinion. There's not many at all. And I wonder-

Sean Kady (28:38):
It's because they pay the same per milligramme as the THC. Am I wrong, Matt? I heard that has something to do with it. I was like, "How come you don't do a CBD drink?" And they're like, "Oh, we got to pay the same tax as THC and"-

Matt Cherkas (28:46):
Not tax. Your taxes... Your duty is based on how much THC is in your product, but the emulsion itself costs the same essentially per milligramme for CBD to THC depending on who you're getting it from. But yeah, I'm excited to see-

Charlie Kady (29:04):
So the emulsion is the most expensive aspect of making a drink then?

Matt Cherkas (29:09):
It depends what your ingredients are, but typically, yeah, your cannabis is going to be three to 4 cents a milligramme, basically finished emulsion on the distillate side anyways. But yeah, I'm excited to see the category go that way too. And it's just going to take on the CBD side.

Charlie Kady (29:28):
Yeah, CBD I think is-

Matt Cherkas (29:30):
It's just this going to take more consumers getting more familiar, having different experiences and with different drinks. And so what I like about CBD in a formulation is it makes it... Or sorry, at least a distillate formulation, is it tamps down the THC effect, mellows down-

Charlie Kady (29:47):
Of course, makes it very chill.

Matt Cherkas (29:47):
It makes it much more sessionable which I think is important for the-

Charlie Kady (29:51):
You can have a couple.

Matt Cherkas (29:52):
Yeah, the audience that we were talking about, all the alcohol execs are trying to grab

Charlie Kady (29:56):
Stop drinking alcohol.

Matt Cherkas (29:57):
That type of product is for them, so I like at least five to one CBD to THC, and then you can just crush those.

Charlie Kady (30:07):
Yeah, super chill.

Matt Cherkas (30:08):
But you have to try a just THC distillate based drink versus a THC distillate based drink that's been punched up a CBD to know the difference. For me-

Charlie Kady (30:18):
Agreed.

Matt Cherkas (30:19):
... when I drink a distillate, just THC distillate drink, all I get is heavy eyelids. I'm a little tired, a little spacey. There's no mood elevation. And there's no body [inaudible 00:30:29].

Charlie Kady (30:28):
Big burnout, I find too.

Matt Cherkas (30:30):
Yeah, so you can't really stack them. But it's interesting 'cause you got to do a lot of education to get the consumer to understand that the perfect drink for a novice, in my opinion is two milligrammes or 2.5 milligrammes THC and like 20 CBD.

Charlie Kady (30:44):
Yeah.

Matt Cherkas (30:46):
But that's a heavy lift and it's so hard to do 'cause of how restrictive we are with marketing and all that kind of stuff. So I think that's holding people back from really diving in on that. But that being said, it's the only direction that someone who's working just with a based drink can go in terms of innovation. So I think in the next year we'll see some really high CBD drinks. So really high-

Charlie Kady (31:10):
As long as it doesn't taste bitter.

Sean Kady (31:11):
As long as it doesn't taste bitter.

Matt Cherkas (31:15):
No, there's a lot of great drinks that use distillate that taste great. Vertosa is really good at dialling in the flavour profile.

Charlie Kady (31:23):
That's your partner, right?

Matt Cherkas (31:24):
Yes, but they work with sweet justice and collective projects basically-

Charlie Kady (31:28):
Your on the team of winners.

Matt Cherkas (31:30):
All super tasty drinks, right?

Charlie Kady (31:31):
Yes.

Matt Cherkas (31:32):
That was the new shelf of flavour is when people started working with Vertosa.

Charlie Kady (31:35):
That's the top shelf?

Matt Cherkas (31:36):
Yeah.

Charlie Kady (31:37):
Again, it's like a development more refined.

Matt Cherkas (31:40):
Yeah, Well, they just... they're great because they have... In the US there was this big boom and continues to be a big boom with CBD beverage, and that's like outside of dispensary. Those are sold regionally in-

Charlie Kady (31:53):
Corner stores even.

Matt Cherkas (31:54):
Yeah, circle K sells Quatro, you know what I mean?

Sean Kady (31:57):
Gas stations, et cetera.

Matt Cherkas (31:58):
Yeah, but high end grocery, all that stuff, it's all regional. But because they're in California and they're leading that space, they've just had the opportunity to put their emulsion in everything, every type of formulation, every package, every pasteurisation profile. And they would describe it this way too. They've fallen over every hurdle that there is. And most other emulsion companies don't even know those hurdles exist.

Sean Kady (32:24):
You fall on your face a couple times before you can figure it out. It makes sense to me.

Matt Cherkas (32:25):
Yeah, so it's almost not a fair comparison to a company that just develops some emulsion technology, and Canada has just been putting THC distillate in seltzers or something. They just have not tried to put it in a kombucha or pasteurise it a certain way or whatever. So Vertosa has just done all of that. So they're really great at-

Charlie Kady (32:43):
Dominating.

Matt Cherkas (32:44):
... dialling in, yeah. And those products I mentioned, taste amazing. So it's not impossible to do with distillate. You're just fighting against it from a taste profile standpoint.

Charlie Kady (32:54):
Wanted to circle back to something you said earlier and that was that you were able to get some drinks. Just to veer into a different topic, and it's about the regulations and working with these guys. I'm interested in-

Sean Kady (33:07):
I'm interested in that too, so you go first and then I got a question about regulation.

Charlie Kady (33:10):
Well, I'd like to hear about something like that changing and even tie into what you were saying about different occasions and whether or not you think, A, something like the change of the milligrammes is a huge barrier for-

Sean Kady (33:27):
I was thinking that-

Charlie Kady (33:28):
... beverages or edibles as a whole, and then also even more so about whether or not CBD beverages for instance, should be the states where they should sell everywhere. Would that be good for the industry as a whole anyways? Maybe?

Matt Cherkas (33:42):
Yeah, okay, let's do the first one.

Charlie Kady (33:44):
But that's a couple big ones.

Matt Cherkas (33:46):
The dose certainly would help the category. I think ultimately, say we could even do a 25 milligramme drink, there'd be a tonne of customers for that. I think 10 is still going to ultimately be the best-selling dose.

Charlie Kady (34:00):
I agree which is maybe a contrary to people's beliefs.

Matt Cherkas (34:04):
Yeah-

Sean Kady (34:05):
I was just trying to jump in on that. The milligrammes per can argument versus the should be able to buy six-

Charlie Kady (34:12):
I guess the price.

Sean Kady (34:12):
... micro session and get more of a discount to... 'cause I agree, I'd rather grab a six-pack and go-

Charlie Kady (34:18):
So then that's a matter of price though then coming down which-

Matt Cherkas (34:21):
Yeah, and that's something interesting about sheesh and how we were able to price so competitively, almost everybody in Canada, if they're working with one of the big emulsion suppliers sits on a shelf of cost. They have to buy the emulsified oil from whatever extraction company, said emulsion company, has an agreement with, and you don't get cheaper on that really. It's like whatever that costs, whatever's going into it, you have no other choice but to work with the two or three big emulsion suppliers. So you can't really tune in your cost of goods. You're on the same playing field with everybody, so everyone's paying 3 cents, 4 cents, a milligramme unless you're vertically integrated, you have your own emulsion, that kind of thing. What's cool about us is we can control the cost of our cannabis further back on the supply chain, so I'm always shopping. I'm always shopping for better deals on fresh, frozen, and luckily it's a buyer's market right now.

Sean Kady (35:26):
Very cool.

Matt Cherkas (35:28):
And having some pals that have some great hash companies like Scott Walters over at Big, I can snip off what they're buying at that volume, or he'll wash something really small for me or something like that.

Sean Kady (35:39):
Got it.

Matt Cherkas (35:39):
So we can be really aggressive on the cost of our cannabis because Vertosa exclusively for us, and thank you Ben and Harold, they do a custom emulsion for us, so we're the only people they'll toll for. So if I can get a better deal on my cannabis and a better deal on having it turned into Rosin then my cannabis cost can actually be... It was probably on par with going into this drink with what you would pay from Vertosa just for distillate.

Sean Kady (36:13):
Very interesting.

Matt Cherkas (36:14):
Yeah, and we've only got more efficiencies to grow on that.

Sean Kady (36:16):
So final bell wash, you told me that. Who grew the input?

Matt Cherkas (36:19):
Seven farms down.

Sean Kady (36:20):
Seven farms down. I missed that [inaudible 00:36:24].

Matt Cherkas (36:24):
Cherry chem dog from those guys. The cross is Star cab chem dog.

Sean Kady (36:29):
Amazing.

Matt Cherkas (36:29):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (36:30):
They do good stuff, yeah, they work. I think they [inaudible 00:36:33], they washed something and they did something with them too. Yeah, they're known. I know-

Matt Cherkas (36:37):
There's a few farms that have really leaned into the fresh, frozen thing. And something cool that we're looking to do is we can do collabs with growers. So we're looking at doing some limited time offer stuff in... We'll do 10 or a thousand cases or 2000 cases, number the cans, and it'll be like a Collab with a grower co-branded product. And you'll get to see us follow the cannabis from planting all the way through to washing and-

Charlie Kady (37:06):
Good.

Matt Cherkas (37:06):
Yeah, it's going to be some fun stuff.

Charlie Kady (37:07):
Sheesh times Cosmic Charlie Soda.

Sean Kady (37:09):
Yeah, man. Let's chat.

Matt Cherkas (37:12):
Yeah, but that's what's so exciting. The plant... The expression, and you guys know this, it can be from batch to batch, from grower to grower. The tiniest variable can change the way it expresses. That, and people are better or worse at controlling that. And then there's great brands of hash, great brands of flour that are based on generations of hunting and all of that amazing craft behind it.

Sean Kady (37:40):
You can really go down the rabbit hole, I agree.

Matt Cherkas (37:42):
Oh yeah, and we're the only drink that can lean into that, you know what I mean? And leverage that for a better experience. So getting back to something I wanted to talk about before, but we are in my mind anyways, finally, I think establishing what a cannabis beverage experience can be as a singular thing, not as an analogue for beer, not... There's stuff that cannabis, the way we work with it can and only cannabis can achieve in a drink.

Charlie Kady (38:11):
True beverage experience.

Matt Cherkas (38:12):
Yeah, that type of variation. But it's all based on the craft behind the growing and the processing. And so-

Charlie Kady (38:22):
At last, right?

Matt Cherkas (38:22):
Yeah, it's just exciting working with these great OG hash people which has been such a cool experience getting this going. That community and that part of the community, at least Ontario has been so welcoming to us.

Sean Kady (38:35):
Yeah, I think, where are you number one hash soda in Ontario? Where are you guys going next? Where are you launching next? I think you had big news for us, didn't you?

Matt Cherkas (38:44):
Oh, we'll Tell you that after the break.

Sean Kady (39:02):
Welcome back to the show, everybody. Here with Matt Cherkas of sheesh sodas.

Matt Cherkas (39:07):
What's up?

Sean Kady (39:10):
He's about to tell us some big news, Matt. It's spicy news he's got for us.

Matt Cherkas (39:13):
This is a world premiere guys. Woo.

Sean Kady (39:19):
Let go, let go.

Matt Cherkas (39:19):
No, we're we're really excited. We just confirmed a listing out in Alberta, headed out west, likely late May. We're going to launch there. So I'm going out.

Sean Kady (39:32):
All you listeners in Alberta, Lookout.

Matt Cherkas (39:34):
Exactly. Retailers, DM me. I want to chop it up with you. Let's talk.

Charlie Kady (39:40):
Are you travelling out there?

Matt Cherkas (39:41):
Yeah, I'm actually headed out next week. Kind is doing a-

Charlie Kady (39:46):
Calgary?

Matt Cherkas (39:46):
Yeah, exactly. And funny enough, they just changed the rules to allow us to do infused sampling out there just in time for me to-

Sean Kady (39:53):
Excellent.

Matt Cherkas (39:55):
I'm going to bring some sheesh out and hand them out there. And then there's a conference, end of May, around when I expect we'll be launching that I think we're going to activate at, and they've got this huge sampling section set up. I'm excited for that this year in Ontario too. The way these guys are running it, there's like a whole... For all three days of The conference.

Charlie Kady (40:16):
[inaudible 00:40:16] Toronto?

Matt Cherkas (40:17):
No, sorry, this, I think it's called Grow Up that we're going to go do.

Sean Kady (40:20):
The grow up conference. I've heard of that.

Matt Cherkas (40:21):
And typically that one is more, for lack of a better term, dirt salesman and lights and stuff.

Sean Kady (40:29):
Yeah, more behind the scenes kind of guys like nutrient salesmen.

Matt Cherkas (40:32):
Yeah, but now that this rule changed in Alberta, they're really leaning into the sampling, and they've got a bunch of cool brands that are going to be... It's like all day during the show, if you're a retailer or a budtender, you can just walk into this section and come chill with us, and have some drinks on the floor.

Sean Kady (40:47):
All right, retailers, budtenders look out. Matt's coming your way next week.

Matt Cherkas (40:51):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I couldn't be more excited about getting started there. And then I can't tell you right now, but we'll come back and talk about it. We're just getting started developing a couple new flavours.

Charlie Kady (41:01):
New flavours. Totally wanted to hear about that.

Sean Kady (41:03):
We were going to ask about what you had in the pipeline, but we'll save it for the next time we have you on the podcast, I guess.

Matt Cherkas (41:08):
Yeah, it's fun though 'cause we have to start with the cannabis. It's strategic. It's got to be A, what's a tasty strain? And B, what's something we can get consistently?

Sean Kady (41:17):
Okay.

Matt Cherkas (41:18):
Yeah, luckily there's a lot of oversupply in the market right now with certain stuff but some of them that line up with the drinks working on.

Sean Kady (41:26):
Wow, we look forward to hearing more, man. That's really exciting stuff. We'll leave that there. I won't pry too much. Did you want to ask Matt, any other questions here, Charlie, before we wrap up? I think you had something you wanted to say.

Charlie Kady (41:39):
Yeah, no, I mean I wanted to definitely hear about what he had in the pipeline. Sound like it's a lot of work to do, but-

Matt Cherkas (41:47):
Yeah, I guess what I could say is we're... It's a priority to develop a sativa forward beverage, just be a-

Charlie Kady (41:57):
Compliment to the black cherry pine.

Matt Cherkas (41:59):
Yeah, we don't want to cannibalise this one too much, so I think the flavour profile will match what you would expect.

Sean Kady (42:04):
Something for those sativa divas out there.

Matt Cherkas (42:05):
Yeah, exactly.

Sean Kady (42:06):
They can lose a weekend without giving out too much information. Something a little more, yeah. Find you on the dance floor. More dance, little more wavy body buzz.

Charlie Kady (42:13):
Summer vibes, maybe.

Matt Cherkas (42:16):
Yeah, so that's fun. We're just getting that going right now.

Charlie Kady (42:20):
Very exciting, man.

Sean Kady (42:22):
Is beverages it for the Sheesh brand? Are you guys going to ever touch anything else? Is there any other bigger vision there for-

Matt Cherkas (42:29):
That's a good question.

Sean Kady (42:30):
... expanding the brand in another category.

Matt Cherkas (42:31):
I think when the time is right, it makes sense, but I don't want to confuse things. I think once you branch out into edibles, let's say, or vapes which would be a pretty natural extension, then you're more of a rosin company versus a drink company. And we want to establish ourselves as the full spectrum, like top of the mountain brand of benefit.

Charlie Kady (42:51):
Narrow the focus.

Matt Cherkas (42:52):
So I think if we kicked out into different categories which we could do right now if we wanted to, it might-

Sean Kady (42:59):
Spread you thin.

Matt Cherkas (43:00):
Yeah, and muddy the brand and what our value proposition is and that kind of stuff. So I'd love to... I have some pretty funny ideas for some edibles and stuff for vapes which would make sense. But we just got to get the drinks firmly rooted across Canada, and then we'll start to look at that kind of stuff.

Sean Kady (43:22):
Yeah, everybody wants to play Willy Wonka One but one thing's at a time. [inaudible 00:43:25]

Speaker 4 (43:24):
I like it though. Do one thing and do it very well.

Matt Cherkas (43:30):
Yeah, I mean that's a lesson that I've learned personally in the industry over the last couple years and definitely seen a lot of companies learn is figure out what your niche is and just stick to that basically. I think there was a time when every cannabis company thought they could and should do everything. And that obviously hasn't really borne fruit for too many of them.

Sean Kady (43:51):
It hasn't worked out for too many of them. We can agree on that one. Definitely, man.

Charlie Kady (43:54):
It's interesting to see that shape unfold.

Matt Cherkas (43:58):
Oh yeah.

Charlie Kady (43:59):
Yeah.

Matt Cherkas (44:00):
Yeah, There's a lot of turmoil right now, but that's also opportunity.

Charlie Kady (44:05):
Exactly.

Sean Kady (44:06):
The real ones are staying in this thing I think.

Matt Cherkas (44:08):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (44:09):
The real ones are showing up on our podcast.

Matt Cherkas (44:11):
Actually been something that is tangible. I think over the last two years, we used to always joke like, "I'd end up in rooms full of assholes a lot and I'd find one non asshole and then we would hang out and keep in touch."

Sean Kady (44:24):
Hey!

Matt Cherkas (44:25):
Yeah, and now I've got a whole stable of people who fit that description, but I feel like less and less... There's no easy money left in the industry anymore.

Sean Kady (44:34):
That's it.

Matt Cherkas (44:34):
So the sharks are onto something else. So I'm having-

Charlie Kady (44:38):
The suits are onto the mushroom thing or the next psychedelic wherever the stock [inaudible 00:44:43].

Matt Cherkas (44:42):
Now the conversations are a lot more substantive. It's people that are in it for the long haul that love cannabis, that want to see it succeed, those are more of the conversations I'm having now versus back in the day, it was a lot more sort of smoke and mirrors and big talk, I guess.

Sean Kady (44:59):
Agreed, matt. Agreed. So where can everybody find you? I guess a plug, "We're in Ontario. We're launching in Alberta.

Matt Cherkas (45:08):
Yeah.

Sean Kady (45:08):
Do you guys have a website?

Matt Cherkas (45:09):
We do. sheeshsodas.com. Check it out

Sean Kady (45:13):
Sheeshsodas.com.

Matt Cherkas (45:13):
Something I should mention is we haven't done a promo campaign for this yet, but this thing is live. We have something called the pot line.

Sean Kady (45:20):
Okay.

Matt Cherkas (45:20):
So it's 1-8-3-3 POTLINE, and the idea is just when you're stoned, give us a call, say whatever you want, and drop a gem on us basically. And the ones we like, you'll see on our stories on our Instagram.

Sean Kady (45:34):
That's a great idea. Okay. I love that. So call the pot line, everybody.

Matt Cherkas (45:38):
Call and say hello. Yeah, otherwise-

Sean Kady (45:39):
1-8-8 POTLINE?

Matt Cherkas (45:41):
Yeah, 1-8-3-3 POTLINE. But yeah, you can check us-

Sean Kady (45:46):
Instagram at sheeshsodas.

Matt Cherkas (45:48):
Sheeshsodas, yeah. My favourite tool for checking out where we're at is hibuddy.ca.

Sean Kady (45:54):
Yeah. Yep.

Matt Cherkas (45:55):
I think we're in upwards of 400 stores in Ontario now, so there's a good chance you can find us.

Sean Kady (46:00):
You can find us in Queen Street West at 821 Queen Street West. We definitely have sheeshsodas stocked in our fridge, so come have one anytime with us guys.

Matt Cherkas (46:08):
Yeah, thank you so much for bringing the product in and for having me today. It's been a blast.

Sean Kady (46:13):
Yeah, man. So much fun to have you on the podcast. Remember everybody, you can reach me and Charlie if there's anything we missed, hit us up at Shawn@higherorbit.ca or Charlie@higherorbit.ca. We're also on Instagram at higher orbit and our website's at higherorbit.ca. Thanks for joining the podcast, and our showrunner drinks a lot of Sheesh Soda. I promised him I would mention that. It's like a case a week. It's ridiculous, Matt. So-

Charlie Kady (46:42):
And you're definitely nominated. You're definitely nominated for a space traveller.

Sean Kady (46:46):
Yes, and you're nominated-

Charlie Kady (46:47):
You're absolutely nominated.

Sean Kady (46:48):
... [inaudible 00:46:49] to tell you, that was the last piece we wanted to say.

Charlie Kady (46:50):
Absolutely.

Sean Kady (46:51):
Our inaugural space travel for awards.

Charlie Kady (46:52):
Can't say who won yet.

Sean Kady (46:54):
Can't say who won. Yeah, we'll leave it there, but-

Charlie Kady (46:56):
I'll cross my fingers, guys. Thank you so much. What an honour.

Sean Kady (47:01):
Yeah, until next time, Matt, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Matt Cherkas (47:03):
Yeah, thanks again.

Charlie Kady (47:03):
We got to open the shop.